Pilot Vessel No.4 - sunk 28/11/1940

[Admin]

Stephen, I think you are correct in reading it to be M/V which would more likely make it Steam Ship / Motor Vessel. Having seen a reference to the sinking as the 29th, not the 28th, I have looked again at the CWGC, and sure enough, in amongst all the casualties for HMS Javelin, there is Lieutenant REGINALD HENRY WHITELEY of H.M. Patrol Vessel 4, who is shown in the October 1940 Navy List as HMS Boscawen, the RN shore base at Portland. So it would seem there is now confusion over the date of death.

I presume Stroomloodsvartuig 4 must either have been in British waters at the time the Netherlands were invaded, or had fled to Britain, to avoid any British or Irish nationals being interned by the Germans?

[Admin]

Incidentally, Google Translate gives the Dutch stoom, rather than stroom, as steam, loods as pilot, and vaartuig as vessel — so it's a straightforward description, but we may be looking for a Stoomloodsvaartuig, rather than Stroomloodsvartuig.

Here's a photo of Stroomloodsvartuig 19, which might be the exact same as 4.
Also:
No. 9
No. 17

And this may be the vessel, if it's not an earlier incarnation, since it appears to be an older design than those above.
No. 4

This is No. 1 and No. 5 which would tend to support the notion there was new batch of these boats constructed which were all the same.

[Stephen]

That spelling makes sense, good spot. And Stoomloodsvaartuig no. 4 gives us this:
https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/reco ... 7f9c2.html
and this:
https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/reco ... 5026c.html
and these:
http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cf ... artrow=101

[Admin]

Hooray at last! I found them all but that one. And the story around No. 19 mentions trying to shift the Dutch gold out of the country! So now it's a question of whether Leonard Shannon had been a member of the crew in Holland, or being based in Poole, signed up on the ship when it arrived there at some point. Also, there must be a guide to the numbers used on the card somewhere, for nationality etc. If he was a British citizen, then he should be recorded in the Roll, even as a civilian.

[sidseymour]

Hi again,

The "And the story around No. 19 mentions trying to shift the Dutch gold out of the country" was a subject that I had heard but had no confirmation of and therefore reluctant to speculate further. I have a meeting with LGS's nephew on monday and will present your findings to date. Many thanks.


Sid

[sidseymour]

Gentlemen,
I have been doing a little more digging , trying to establish the coding at the top of the Record of Death

"Also, there must be a guide to the numbers used on the card somewhere, for nationality etc."

Any clues at all for you?

Sid

[David Carter]

Ernst Dienst, my friend in Holland has sent me these links which tell the story of transferring the gold to UK:

http://www.zuidfront-holland1940.nl/ind ... -holland-2

https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/141024/D ... e-Waterweg

They are in Dutch, but if you click on them, it can translate into English.

[sidseymour]

Further to the information above, today I have heard the following.
LGS was on board Pilot Vessel No.4 in his capacity as a member of the Royal Navy Reserve although, he is listed as a Merchant Seaman under the information received from General Register and Record Office of Shipping and Seamen (dated 1992).

It seems that no formal body wishes to claim him as their own!

[sidseymour]

The date of death has been clouded by the action taking place during the hours of darkness which may explain the dates 28/29 November. I don't know if this hinders or helps anyone looking into this.

The gentleman whose Uncle is the center of attention is very grateful for the information revealed so far.

Sid Seymour

[David Carter]

Syd That fits in - the RNR were generally merchant seamen who could be co-opted into the RN. The RNVR were civilians who had volunteered to train in the event of hostilities.

The rather rude description was that the RNR were sailors trying to be gentlemen, the RNVR were gentlemen trying to be sailors. In the event both types of reservist accredited themselves very well, the RN would not have coped without them.

[Admin]

It transpires that there are three Royal Naval casualties from Patrol Vessel 4 recorded by the CWGC for the 29th November, including two officers:

Royal Navy Personnel
Lieutenant (E) George Percival Harding Aged 58
Lieutenant Reginald Henry Whiteley Aged 49
Ordinary Seaman John Caleb Mitchell (MiD) D/BD/X 1750 Aged 22

OS John Caleb Mitchell was awarded a posthumous MiD, the London Gazette entry for which reads:

For gallant conduct in action against the enemy:
The Distinguished Service Medal.
Seaman Edgar Leo Toms, R.N.R. X.I9222A.
Mention in Despatches (Posthumous}.
Ordinary Seaman John Caleb Mitchell, R.N.V.R., D/BD/X.I750.

It's unclear whether Seaman Edgar Leo Toms was also a member of crew of Patrol Vessel 4, or how many crew, both RN and civilian, Patrol Vessel 4 had, or who it was who recalled the actions of John Caleb Mitchell, which resulted in his posthumous award.

The record of L G Shannon's death shows three other civilian deaths from Patrol Vessel 4

Civilian Seaman
J Dick - Poole
A Moore - Poole
A Spurriet - Poole

1939 Register shows L G Shannon as a General Worker, rather than a merchant seaman, so whether this reflected his longstanding situation, or was just how he came to be recorded on the day I couldn't say. Is there any knowledge within the family of his always having been a seaman?

I have found no mention of Pilot Vessel 4, Patrol Vessel 4, Stoomloodsvaartuig 4 or Hellevoetsluis in British Vessels Lost at Sea 1939–1945. I think this reflects a general trend, in that foreign vessels crewed by Royal Navy personnel, in whole or in part, will tend to be cited in Commonwealth War Graves Commission records for casualties, as well as in records of awards, but if the vessels are lost, they are not recorded as British war losses. For example, there were a number of French submarine chasers called Chasseurs which were out and out military vessels crewed by the Royal Navy, and which are seen as an element of Coastal Forces, and recorded as such by us, for which there are some 28 RN casualties recorded from five of them at various times. But those which were sunk do not appear in any record of vessels lost, even when their crews are.

I suspect the story of how this vessel came to be in Britain in 1940, and what happened to its original Dutch crew will lie in Dutch records, whilst what happened to Patrol Vessel 4, is likely only to be found in such documentation as may still exist in the Public Record Office at Kew, for the award of Mention in Dispatches (Posthumous) for John Caleb Mitchell. You could run the matter past the Royal Navy again, but ask about Patrol Vessel 4, rather than Pilot Vessel 4, just in case that may make a difference.

Admin

[sidseymour]

Thank you for your continuing efforts into LGS and his demise. Interestingly, the gentleman searching for this information is Patrick Toms. He is now looking into a possible family connection to this man.

There are some family anecdotes (no documents) of LGC joining the RNR in late 1939, early 1940. There is little to confirm his previous employment and how his existing skills were to be utilised by RN.
Sid Seymour

[sidseymour]

Can anyone identify the legend on the top line of the Record of Death. What do the numbers refer to?

[Stephen]

I've had a good rummage in my research guidance and online, but unfortunately I've drawn a blank on these. I do wonder though - the number for nationality seems extraordinarily high for a 'code' of some sort, even if that nationality were Ireland. The same goes for rank or rating. Of course, cause of death may offer some clue as to why he's not on the Roll of Honour...

[Doreen]

Thank you all for this site and your information on Pilot Vessel No. 4 lost om 28th November 1940 My father was Albert Edward Spurrier not Spurriet -but when I saw his name acknowledged after all this time and my years of searching for information, it was emotional but wonderful. When, via Greenwich a death notice a replica of the one published on this post, even to the NOT TO BE ENTERED ON THE ROLLOF HONOUR per Mr Prater I was determined to find out why. hopefully through this forum now. I always assumed the ship was out of Poole,{ I knew the Shannon and Toms families } as I remember waving my father goodbye, but not sure if the last voyage or not. My older brother thought they were going to Falmouth to have guns fitted - we have a post=card dated the 26th November saying they were awaiting orders. When I saw it was originally a Dutch ship I assumed it came into Poole with Refugees, as Belgian ships had done. Passengers were originally taken to Brownsea Island to ensure that German Spies were not intermingled with genuine refugees, not a pleasant experience apparemtly Now reading your findings I wonder was my father among those rescued by HMS Javelin and then killed ?

[sidseymour]

Doreen,
I am glad that someone else is getting some benefit from the digging that is going on regarding Pilot Vessel No.4. You will see that I have been frustrated in my efforts to date, especially regarding the information I have sent to the RN and Merchant Navy. It could well be that I am asking the wrong questions to the wrong organisations. I do find it incredulious that both orgaisations send me back to the other one whenever I ask a question (it was a RN vessel - when asked off the MN and vice versa when asked of the RN).

If you do come across and further information, please post it on these pages
Sid Seymour

[Doreen]

Hello, my efforts were thwarted just like yours - the only place I found any information was from Greenwich a super lady there found the death notice for my father and forwarded it to me, it is an almost exact copy of the one already shown on this site, even to" not to be entered on the ROH per Mr. Prater" This was what incensed me and made me determined to find out more, which I have only done through this forum. I have the letters from Commander Hastings, informing my mother my father was missing, and another one saying must be assumed now lost at sea. These letters originated from the Naval Base Headquarters then. situated in Poole High Street. As a spooky detail, I read the ships bell from HMS Javelin ended up in the --British Legion 29-- Burin Newfoundland. My fathers family ran a business out of Poole and Newfoundland and owned properties and a shipyard in Burin, until the 1840/50's. My father left home to go to war from 29 green Road Poole !

Would there not be a Ships Log from the Captain of HMS Javelin about the rescue of survivors ? The ship and the Captain survived - I wonder if my dad survived the first attack and was killed on HMS Javelin ? I went to school with Yvonne Shannon. I believe it could have been her father on board PV No.4 if you could trace her she may have information. Sorry if I ramble on but having successfully found the story of PV N0.4 and having my dad recognised at long last as a participant in ww2 I am amazed.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hello,

In the Admiralty War Diaries, available on fold3.com, there is the following on this boat:

"Pilot Boat No 4 abandoned in 49° 49' N;, 4° 49' W., on fire forward. Have rescued all survivors. Consider salvage possible."
(Message from HMS Jackal to CinC Western Approaches, 1047 hrs, 29 November 1940)
https://www.fold3.com/image/302070399

"...
4. Other vessels known to have been involved are tug AID and barge C.B.X. 110 sunk, pilot vessel No. 4 and tug ABEILLE No 14 being towed in by trawlers."
(Message from CinC Western Approaches to Admiralty, 2114 hrs, 29 November 1940)
https://www.fold3.com/image/302070409

Sadly there is nothing more on 30 November. If the pilot boat was effectively towed, it may have sunk on tow.

I checked the WWII Dutch war dead database and found no name linked to this boat for 28 or 29 November 1940. There is one sailor on the 28th, lost with the British ship St Elwyn.

[Pioneer]

Be aware that fold3.com is a subscription website that will automatically bill you after the free trial ends.

[sidseymour]

Many thanks for the alternative web site but, sadly, it was another blank . We are not finished yet....

[Admin]

I have managed to acquire a copy of the Admiralty file on Patrol Vessel 4 (ADM 358/3797). The pages of most interest are these two which are the last ones in the folder. It would be interesting to learn what an Eng.6 agreement was. A copy of the complete file is available on request.

Admin

Detail from the Admiralty Report on Patrol Vessel No 4 (Crown copyright)

Detail from the Admiralty Report on Patrol Vessel No 4 (Crown copyright)

[sidseymour]

Many thanks for your continued support to this particular project. The information keeps coming in and I can continue to provide some succour to an old soldier about his Uncle.

[Geoff 1949]

I am a newcomer to this interesting thread about "Pilot Boat 4"
My family is from a very long line of Poole Dorset fishing families. Our family is related to many others in the old town of Poole fishing families including Toms and Mitchell.
I have only just discovered that my grandfather was the Albert Edward Cartridge of Pilot boat 4 (Mate) and as I found out today through an "Ancestry" message was the author of a letter dated December 2nd 1940 to Commander Lyons commending two Lewis gunners, Les Toms and J Mitchell (Able seamen) for "great bravery". "I am of the opinion that they deserve some recognition and would appreciate if you would put this through to the proper authorities". It was written from the private address of 210 Blandford rd, Poole Dorset, which I remember well as a teenager.

I had only a sketchy oral account of this incident as passed to me by my father. My grandfather was very reticent to communicate, and certainly kept a lot to himself in his later years. All I knew of substance that in WWI he was on HMS King George and then finished his WWI service in 1919 on a ship called HMS White Oak.

In WWII, I was given to understand that my grandfather served on fireboats in Poole Harbour and I have several photos of him as a crew member. The crew was called upon to the clean up operation after the Slapton Sands, Devon incident and that apparently upset him greatly. My father said that the many hundreds of greatly disfigured young mens bodies reminded him too much of his own sons.
The following written account was passed on to me by a cousin and he and I had erroneously assumed that it took place in WWI;
"Pop didn’t say much about his war memories, as some haunted him for years, but mum did remember one or two. She found Pop in the garden sitting very still and smoking, a far off look in his eyes. I don’t know which ship he was on but it was hit and sinking, a direct hit on the bridge had killed all the officers, a second hit killed most of the crew, so Pop was the only ranking officer left. He told mum the ship was burning and he went round looking for anyone alive, at that point a Royal Navy ship came alongside, a voice called out “Do you wish to abandon ship?” After the survivors were taken aboard, Pop was summoned to the see some officer to give an account of the sinking. This officer started ranting on about being pulled off patrol just to pick up a few men, Pop was not very pleased and removed his cap from his pocket, and put it on, so now Pop outranked this person and called him “a bloody fool.” He then quoted the rules of the sea and told him to return to naval school where he belonged. Later we found out that officer was Lord Louis Mountbatten, Prince Charles' uncle, who was later assassinated by the IRA"
A photo of Lord and Lady Mountbatten on board ship was among the photos passed on to me and came from my grandparents.
I hope this is useful for someone.

[Admin]

Hello Geoff

Thank you for adding to the story which adds more detail to the events of that night. It would appear HMS Javelin would have been the destroyer which took took off survivors. Do you have a copy of the letter your grandfather wrote to Commander Lyons? Also do you know anything more of the status of Patrol Vessel 4 and its original Dutch owners, and do you have any information on your grandfather’s status with the boat, whether as a Mate he was classed as a civilian or something else?

Regards
Admin

[Geoff 1949]

Hello Geoff

Thank you for adding to the story which adds more detail to the events of that night. It would appear HMS Javelin would have been the destroyer which took took off survivors. Do you have a copy of the letter your grandfather wrote to Commander Lyons? Also do you know anything more of the status of Patrol Vessel 4 and its original Dutch owners, and do you have any information on your grandfather’s status with the boat, whether as a Mate he was classed as a civilian or something else?

Regards
Admin

Thank you for your reply. My Grandfather Albert Edward Cartridge was in the RNVR in WWII and as I have now discovered served as Mate on board Pilot Vessel number 4. He served on the fireboats as a fireman in Poole Harbour and I guess the status of all firemen would be similar.
I have photo images of official papers which indicate that Seaman Leo Toms was a RNR, and Ordinary Seaman John C Mitchell was RNVR. There were at least 14 crew. The firemen were listed as being paid at Devonport.
S Masters and J Goldring were listed as Firemen and survivors and J. Randall as Steward. I am unclear as to how many survivors there were. I was led to believe that my grandfather and just a few survived. Why he did not receive recognition I dont know. He was certainly not a man to seek recognition.
I have just worked out how to send the images . They were images posted to Ancestry.com pages and then forwarded to me. If they are not readable then please contact me immediately and I will try to find a work around.
Geoff,

[Geoff 1949]

I have found some photos which might be relevant to this thread. My grandfather "Prince" Albert Edward Cartridge is seated on the bollard and in the centre of the three seated men. The other two men are unknown but these photos were kept carefully by my Grandparents. The fireboat photos were probably not taken on Poole Quay.
Geoff

[HannahD]

Hi,

I'm Hannah and have been in touch with Geoff on Ancestry, and would like to thank him again for his help. The letters regarding the awards originally came from the niece of Edgar Leo Toms. I've been doing some research on behalf of a family friend who is a relative of John Caleb Mitchell. I thought I'd share my response regarding the Mountbatten story:

Thank you for your response. It's entirely possible that the incident with Mountbatten did occur during WW1. Perhaps astonishingly, given his age, Mountbatten did serve as a Midshipman aboard the HMS Lion and HMS Queen Elizabeth from 1916 onwards:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mou ... rly_career

[NB: It may fit with him being younger and more arrogant at that earlier point in his career.]

Your Grandfather seems to have tried to enlist in 1915 but was rejected as being underage, and would later successfully sign up towards the end of 1916:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/D8513961

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/D8521697

It's incredible to think of the confrontation as they would have both been pretty much literally boys at the time. Your Grandfather would have been 20 at Armistice Day and Mountbatten, 18.

It may just be an interesting symmetry that Mountbatten came to be tangentially involved in the Pilot Boat iv incident.

It seems like your Grandfather would have felt the incident very deeply, particularly as he was moved to write that letter on the 2nd of December, which must have been very soon after he returned to Poole, certainly it was dated the same day as the telegram on the cfv forum.

Albert Edward Cartridge was registered as a Yacht Skipper (unemployed) on the 1939 Register, and judging from the telegrams upthread seems to have come to have been on Pilot Boat iv via a civilian route, although he did have military naval experience in WW1. I've also attached his naval records. I don't know if anyone with more expertise than me can spot anything on there that would line up with the Mountbatten incident, or whether this is more likely to have been from the Pilot Boat iv incident.

[Admin]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the contributors to this thread to date. Although the subject was off-topic for this forum, which is dedicated solely to the personnel and boats of Coastal Forces, it has nonetheless proved valuable in bringing an historical oversight to wider attention. The thread has fulfilled something of its original intent by uncovering certain information about casualties Leonard Gould Shannon and Albert Edward Spurrier, and will now close to further contributions. The subject would doubtless benefit from the kind of dedicated research a local history group might lend it, to unearth further details and complete the story.

A copy of the dossier on the Patrol Vessel No 4 held by the Public Record Office at Kew may be viewed here: Patrol Vessel No. 4 ADM 358/3797 (15.4MB)

To all the men lost on Pilot/Patrol Vessel No. 4, and all other seamen who may have died without formal recognition of their death being granted by the authorities while serving alongside the Royal Navy during the Second World War.

Lest we forget

J Dick (Poole)
Lieutenant (E) George Percival Harding
Ordinary Seaman John Caleb Mitchell (MiD) D/BD/X 1750
A Moore (Poole)
Leonard Gould Shannon
Albert Edward Spurrier
Lieutenant Reginald Henry Whiteley

[sidseymour]

Fellow readers,
After a long haul we have got some light at the end of our particular tunnel. Please see the email from the CWGC below.

I would like to thank everyone who has provided assistance in this project and helped us to a conclusion. However, one or two pieces of the jigsaw remain unsolved. The main one being the solving of the legend on the top of the death certificate. We are still open for any suggestions.



Subject: RE: Leonard Shannon (CWGC Enquiry Acknowledgement: Number 00100935)-00127432 [ thread::Gn7wToTjf6i0QBEqv0TkkhA:: ]

Dear Mr Sid Seymour and Mr Patrick Toms,

Thank you for your continued patience.

I write with some news regarding the commemoration of Able Seaman Leonard Gould Shannon of the Merchant Navy, who died in November 1940. This was originally Non-Commemoration case NC 10903.

I am pleased to relay that his name is featured on a new addenda panel of the Tower Hill Memorial, which is due to be installed on site shortly, likely before September. Able Seaman Gould's name is now recorded alongside his three comrades - Able Seaman Dick, Able Seaman Spurrier and Fireman Moore - who also lost their lives aboard H.M. Patrol Vessel No.4. They will be commemorated in perpetuity as Commonwealth war casualties.

As outlined previously, I have asked that our Works Team provide me with a photograph of the installed addenda panel. Once received, I will then forward this on to you both - although naturally you might now choose to visit the Memorial to see the bronze panel for yourselves. I'm glad that we have now reached a point that hopefully feels as rewarding to you as the original adjudication decision.

My thanks once again for your interest in the work of the Commission.

Kind Regards,

James

Dr James Wallis
Commemorations Policy Manager

[Pioneer]

Well done sir, and thank you all for your perseverance.
Best Regards
Ted Else