MTB 670

[davidddnfp]

hi colin [jonco] i have looked closely at the photos sadly i cannot recognise dad but it does not mean he was not on board he was a gunner on the pom poms as he called them one thing of interest i see 670 has a number on the side of her dad told me that the number was removed due to top secret work they did with the partisans and commandos records show that 670 was lost in transit at sea he told me they took her five miles off the coast of malta and sunk her a lot of information that has been recorded does not always make sense maybe we should get our heads together to try and work out the truth about these brave lads dad was the same as your father i once offered to take him to malta so he could take a look around and show me the area he was in but he totally refused some of the stories i have makes one realise just what they did go through and you can't blame them for not wanting to talk about it or go back.

[Admin]

Just to help clarify something here. MTB 670 is recorded as having been lost on passage between Malta and Alexandria on 30 January 1946. It was lost in conjunction with a number of other boats, including MTB 658, which was Len Reynolds' boat — the well known Coastal Forces author.

I was just reading a piece recently where Len Reynolds had investigated the issue some decades after the war to determine what exactly had happened to his old boat. The boats had all been paid off by this time — their crews disbanded — and the boats were effectively being taken to Alexandria to be sold off. Apparently the weather was quite rough for the proposed tow, but when the Senior Officer of the destroyer that was to carry out the operation sought to question the matter, he was told to follow orders, and so set off. Severe weather caused the towing operation to get into difficulty, and the MTBs started to founder in heavy seas. The skeleton crews onboard the MTBs were taken off, and the tow continued until such time as the boats started to sink, at which point they were apparently finished off by gunfire from the escort, to prevent them becoming a hazard at sea.

As Len Reynolds lamented, it was a sad end to some famous fighting ships, yet more fitting he thought that they go down in this fashion than become floating gin palaces at Alexandria.

As for the numbers being covered up, I suppose that is possible, although it wouldn't make much sense operationally. I am aware that censors removed numbers from photographs when taken, which may be what was meant.

[jonco]

Thanks Admin - I received a very similar account on another forum - the author believed they were destined to be become customs vessels.

[Pioneer]

These boats were destined to be Egyptian Custom s craft. MTB 651 also being among this group.

HMS Colombo was the Cruiser that was present (November 1944) to receive the surrender of the occupying German forces. She placed an NP (Naval Party) ashore which then organised the port into a forward CF base for the remainder of the war.

[Croatian Navy]

HMS COLOMBO was stationed from November 1944 till the end of war in port of town of Zadar (Zara) as a AA ship. The Germans try to sink it with explosive ships in December 1944.

HMS DELHI was stationed from November 1944 till the end of war in port of town of Split (Spalato) as a AA ship. The Germans try to sink it with explosive ships in Februar 1945. It was lightl damadged then.

[Pioneer]

According to Naval History Net HMS Colombo was active in the Aegean Sea during November, then again in December 1944, sailing back to the UK in March 1945.

[davidddnfp]

thanks admin for that info, it does not surprise me that there is negative response to my comments after ten years of research on 670 by an exsperienced researcher freind of mine and myself we come up against this all the time there has been quite a lot of cover up one thing i can say is my dad always told the truth he had no reason not too. i have in my possesion a photo given to me by a certain war photographer taken from the air when he was in malta the date was 1944 i have compared this with the photo of 670 i believe 670 underwent an upgrade for special opps the picture shows no number this photograph came from a highly respected commander 670 had been fitted with certain equipment which was top secret i remember dad saying he was on watch and a local couple innocently took a photo of the boat he had to report this to the skipper they arrested immediately and taken to the local police station my research put me in contact with a famous media person who was part of the war film crew in malta he confirmed he had been on an mtb with a certain famous general on a top secret mission this my father spoke of again there was no number on the boat i work in the media a lot myself and one day i will piece this story together in memory of my brave father and his shipmates as for what really happened to 670 who knows

[Admin]

Hello David

That's very interesting, and it certainly bears further investigation. I suspect the affair is probably linked to the political goings on at the time in the region, the Allies having started off by backing the Chetniks, before deciding to throw their weight behind Tito's Partisans instead. I also suspect the equipment, which was presumably visible and could be photographed, would be the radar fitted to Dog boats, which would have been top secret at the time, and something they would not have wanted to fall into the hands of the Germans.

Just to add: there are lots of books available on the subject of Special Operations Executive (SOE) that would likely cover the campaign in Yugoslavia amongst the Partisans, so I'm sure it would be possible to determine which special missions likely involved the Coastal Forces boats.

This primer from the BBC web site: Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941 - 1945 provides a useful introduction to this complex subject.

[davidddnfp]

thanks once again admin, just to clarify your suspisions you are correct about the radar my photo shows the boat with a radar system the same as we would see on modern boats of today it also shows four large areials which when i asked the commander who took the photo what they were for he informed me they were radio control areials which were used to control four radio controlled smaller boats filled with high explosive used against the enemy shipping this we are still researching this making her the mother ship in control and so the story continues

[Peter]

Interestingly the Radar Dome shown on the photograph of MTB670 was of the latest American design Radar known as PPI -- Plan Position Indicator -- which was first seen when the 28th Flot. of 70ft Vospers arrived from America in October 1944 and became operational in the Adriatic ( Ancona)in early 1945 replacing the now paid off 24th Flott. This Radar was the first type of indicator that displayed a 360 degree display of information making easy to identify targets and to use for accurate navigation , very useful in the narrow channels around the Dalmation Islands , unlike the equipment fitted to most of the boats which was totally unsuitable to those conditions , viewing a 6inch indicator screen with a horizontal trace looking for vertcal blips ( like the hospital heart monitor ) and turning the aerial mounted high on the mast head by a hand wheel in the W/T cabin . from zero to 170 starboard then back to zero to 170 Port . Which was then known as RDF Radio Direction Finder we then become known from A/B RDF to A/B Radar

[davidddnfp]

hi petro thanks for the info i am no expert on these things no more than i am on a computer if i can work out how to send the photo through so you can see what i mean i will do so i still think there is something special going on in this story which i am determined to get to the bottom of i was talking to mum the other day [now in her eighties bless her] she remembered dad saying there were 27 men all told in the running of the boat dad's info was when at sea they carried a crew of 13 the boat was fitted with two merlin spitfire engines with a top speed of around 40 knots i have a freind coming round over the weekend who is good on computers so i will try and get some help from him and see if i can send the photo through i will also pass on your info to my researcher thanks again

[davidddnfp]

photo of mtb we discussed supplied by war photographer

[Admin]

That's an interesting photo David. Those with greater knowledge of D-Class boats may be better able to comment on the nature of the four aerials that are visible, as well as on the type of radar equipment carried. But comparing this photo to the known one of MTB 670 that jonco has posted, obvious differences strike the eye immediately. For a start no torpedo tubes, and the wheelhouse gun bins with their supporting structure have all been removed. At first I thought this may have been one of the earlier D-Class MGBs until I observed the scalloped insets on the hull for torpedo tubes*, that the later dedicated MTBs had. I know that some D-Class boats were retained after the war, and operated into the 1950s with their torpedo tubes and additional bridge armament removed — as this boat has — effectively reprising their earliest role as an MGB. Obviously MTB 670 having been lost in 1946, this can't be the case here, but do we know for sure that this photograph is of MTB 670?

* Addendum: Although the earliest D-Class boats were designed without scalloped insets forward, later Dog boats did have them fitted, whether equipped for an MTB or MGB role. This included those MGBs that operated in the Mediterranean, which unlike their counterparts in British waters, never acquired torpedo tubes. So there were MGBs with scalloped insets but no torpedo tubes.

[jonco]

Further to Admins comments - do we have a time slot for this photo. I believe that my photos were taken between Oct `44 and July `45 - these being the dates written on my father's medal record. As I stated initially his actual service record did not record him on MTB 670 but on ML563 until July 45 but ML563 was lost in Aug `44.

[davidddnfp]

thanks admin and jonco for your comments concerning the photo you can see my dilema due to dad's info it does tie in with what he said as for the actual date taken when i visited the commander who supplied the photo we were interveiwing him on film about his war exsperiences he showed us off camera a photo album of some of his war phtography the reason for this he did not want to show some of the grewsom shots he had taken this photo was in the album underneath written in old pencil was MALTA 1944 he explained he took the photograph while on aireal manouvers in the area hence i asked if it would be possible to have a copy he took a great interest in what we were trying to do so he had a meeting with my researcher who was able to get quite a lot of info from him intend to have a meetihg this afternoon with my researcher see what i come home with

[Croatian Navy]

Radar system on this photo seems tooo modern for 1944/1945. But maybe I am wrong.

[davidddnfp]

futher to my meeting with my researcher concerning mtb 670 he has pointed out on the subject of the torpedo tubes being removed ,notes made on dads comments show that the tubes were removed when they were on mine sweeping manoveres this was done for safety reasons because of the cables they used also our freind the commander had supplied us with a newspaper cliping telling the story of radio controled boats being loaded with high explosive against enemy shipping hence the aerials as for the number being removed it would be quite obvious looking at the story of the famous general for instance had the enemy known the number of the boat he was on it would have made an easy target as for the radar yes it does look modern i said this before another reason why the boat was highly protected we have been zooming in on the photo one can see the skipper checking out the aircraft the photo is being taken from with his binoculars also guns are pointing at the ready the crew are wearing navy blue ovaralls i remember dad saying this is what they wore because he always wore them for work i asked him once why he didn't wear something else that's when he explained he got used to them when on board the boat the tubes would have been replaced once mine sweeping was finished as i have said before there has been a lot of cover up one can't always beleive what one reads.

[cdsc123]

I think the boat in the photo is FPB 5020 (decommissioned 1956).

[Admin]

futher to my meeting with my researcher concerning mtb 670 he has pointed out on the subject of the torpedo tubes being removed ,notes made on dads comments show that the tubes were removed when they were on mine sweeping manoveres this was done for safety reasons...

SOE and The Resistance: As Told in Times Obituaries (ISBN 9781441119711) published just last year by Continuum Publishing, has a whole section on Yugoslavia, and covers all the colourful characters who would likely have been carried on a CF boat for any reason involving the resistance movements, though in truth most of the time they were parachuted into the mountainous terrain strongholds of the Partisans.

As for MTB 670, the definitive historical record remains that of the photographs posted by jonco, which are those of a late-war Mediterranean ‘Dog boat’, which quite clearly would not have had its torpedoes, additional guns, state-of-the-art radar, and even its Carley float suddenly exchanged for what can be seen in your photograph.

[jonco]

Re CDSC123 comment
According to the following link

http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/royalnavy/his ... p2009.html

there is photo of FPB 5020 on page 254 of Dog Boats at War - does anybody have a copy for comparison?

[jonco]

Another distant picture of MTB 670 and another crew member - exact dates again unknown but between Oct 44 and July 45.

[Admin]

I think the boat in the photo is FPB 5020 (decommissioned 1956).

Yes, John Lambert's book on the Fairmile D contains a drawing of FPB 5001 (former MTB 780) as of 1954, having the same forward, mid, and aft armament as shown in the photo, together with the clear wheelhouse, and which depicts the whip ariels and a lattice mast. He describes this boat as a control craft for directing the Gay and Dark Class FPBs, and the photo certainly has the look of a post-war craft dedicated to such communications.

[Pioneer]

Admin... John Lambert's book on the Fairmile D contains a drawing of FPB 5001 (former MTB 780) as of 1954, having the same forward, mid, and aft armament as shown in the photo, together with the clear wheelhouse, and which depicts the whip ariels and a lattice mast. He describes this boat as a control craft for directing the Gay and Dark Class FPBs, and the photo certainly has the look of a post-war craft dedicated to such communications.

With kind permission of John Lambert we are able to reproduce this line drawing of FPB 5001 (click for larger image)

Drawing by J. Lambert.

As this is a Plan view, the far set of twin whip aerials would not be drawn.

Toward the end of the book 'Allied Coastal Forces at War. Volume 1' there is a valuable precis of the developement of Radar for CF, later I am hoping to get the title and authour of an important two volume reference source that John Lambert had used.

[davidddnfp]

thanks to everyone for their help on their response to our request to find out more about mtb 670 we never did claim the photo we had was 670 but obviously we needed to clarify it was not it still leaves all the info we have and the story that is building up to be sorted it's frustrating at times we cannot speak to the commander anymore as he is no longer with us another meeting with my researcher at the weekend will take recent info to him and see what he comes up with thanks to jonco for sharing his fathers photos with us it has been a great help will keep everyone posted as we progress

[DARREN]

Hi jonco,

I have been reading some of the posts regarding MTB 670, and have printed them off for a more leisurely read at home. I realise I am some months behind, and don't know how far your investigation has gone, but I came across your post by chance. The reason for my interest, is that my Grandad is Lofty Turner. Unforunately he passed away a long time ago, aged only 56, and I was never at an age to understand about the war, or to ask any questions. I know the servicemen rarely spoke about their experience's and I believe my Grandad was the same, but I have been meaning for some time to try and find some details of his service. My Dad enquired for some details regarding the award of his DSM, but apart from that, all I know is that he was a gunner and stationed in Malta. If your investigations are still current, and you have any history I would be grateful to hear anything you know, or if you could point me in the right direction to start my own investigations I would be very grateful.

[jonco]

Hi Darren,
Good to hear from you. I had rather given up on finding any further information. My dad died 10 years ago (aged 79) and it was only afterwards that I became aware of his photo album. I have posted a number of those photos on this forum and they included the one of 'Lofty' Turner which had the caption of 'on MTB 670'. I presume that Lofty Turner was Able Seaman Wilfred Turner C/JX 374043 RN DSM and I understand your grandad was awarded the DSM for actions in August '44 - see information from Brian Holmes on page 1 of this thread. My father was not on MTB 670 at this time he was busy getting sunk on ML 563 in the Med.

I think others ( Brian Holmes/ Croatian Navy) will be able to add more information - but there are snippets and references in the text above.

I would suggest that you apply for his full service and medals record. These should help you but be prepared that they may not be fully accurate. This is one route to get them http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_rec ... cords.html
Best of luck -
Colin

[DARREN]

Hi Colin,

Thanks very much for your help. My Grandad is indeed Able Seaman Wilfred Turner, and as I said I have very little info about his service during the war, but now I have somewhere to start. I know my Dad is now very keen to find out more, after I rang and told him of your Dad's pictures, and all the correspondence between the various people involved. I am going up to see him at the weekend, so hopefully I will be able to get him registered on this site, and keep him updated on any findings.
Once again, thanks very much for your help and maybe if there is any fresh discoveries we could keep each other informed.
All the best
Darren

[Terry Turner]

Hello Colin, my son Darren informed me of this website and I thought I would post this information about my fathers awards while serving on MTB 670.I had to apply to the Admiralty for this as my dad appears to have been like most servicemen and never spoke of it.He was mentioned in despatches for action on the night of 17/18 July 1944 when MTB670 along with MTB649 and MGB659 sank three enemy vessels and damaged another off Lirica Island. He was awarded the DSM for action on the 25/26th July 1944 when along with MTBs 651 and 667 they engaged a convoy of 1 400-ton flak schooner,2 "I" Boats and 5 "E" Boats off Peljesac and destroyed the schooner,both "I"boats and 3 "E" boats and damaged the other two which escaped.His citation states that as 2pdr gunner he scored direct hits on the schooner which exploded and burnt to the waters edge, an "E" boat which burst into flames amidship and on a second "E" boat that exploded violently a nd hits on an "I"boat with no obvious result. I hope that this will help in your search for information on MTB670 . Good luck Terry Turner

[jonco]

Hi Terry,
Welcome aboard as they say.
Thanks for info - hope the photo I posted is a good likenesss of your dad. I am going to re-check the album (my mother has it at the moment) I vaguely recall the caption said `Lofty Turner on 6 pounder' which ties in with his role. I think @Croatian Navy has done a lot of research on this topic - it maybe worth pm'ing him.

Cheers

Colin

[davidddnfp]

Hi Jonco sorry we have been a long time getting in contact went to visit my mother yesterday bless her at the ripe old age of 84 years old she still remembers various things dad spoke to her about concerning mtb 670 as she has just bought a new laptop i was able to show her this site she looked at the photos you posted out came the magnifying glass fourth photo down of the crew second man in from right with all the black hair [got told off , 'what's up with you boy don't you regonise your father when you see him? sorry mum apparently his hair would stick up like that after they had been swimming they would play a lot of water polo to try and take their minds of things 'i know my cecil when i see him she said, ok mum. cecil was dad's nickname] so we now know dad is in the photo also she said that dad often spoke about lofty must be lofty turner she pointed out there were some funny times one being that dad and lofty had to cook baked beans on toast for everybody 27 people all told so they put the tins of beans in pans of hot water to heat them up but failed to pierce the cans the obvious happened and the cans exploded covering the gally walls in baked beans needless to say the skipper was not very happy ,nice to hear these stories, i am going to see her again in a couple of weeks and have asked her to try and remember what she can and take notes she says she will do her best our researcher is still hard at it moaning about people who think they know and they don't but we will keep persevering best regards david