MTB 30

Motor Torpedo Boats (MTB)
Sue
Seaman
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:25 pm

MTB 30

Postby Sue » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:31 pm

I have discovered that my dad was based mostly at HMS Beehive from 1942 - 1943 and served on the MTB 30 until it was destroyed. I would love to know if anyone can fill in any details of any serving crew especially those who went out on it's final trip, and even if dad was amongst them. Dad was a stoker. Through your forum I found the short film about the Coastal Forces on the Imperial War Museum site which I found very interesting. Any information on the work or life of those serving for the Coastal services would be appreciated as, until recently, all I knew was that dad served in the navy. Eventually he ended up in Trincomalle and was invalided out at the end of 1945.

Many thanks
Sue

jonco
Chief Petty Officer
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: MTB 30

Postby jonco » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:20 pm

Hi Sue,
Have a look at this for starters.
http://www.grahamtall.co.uk/wgs1955/War ... fficer.htm

More may follow

Regards

Sue
Seaman
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:25 pm

Re: MTB 30

Postby Sue » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:48 pm

Thanks for that jonco, very interesting. I will save the page and look forward to learning more.

Best wishes
Sue

CAM
Sub Lieutenant
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:49 am

Re: MTB 30

Postby CAM » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:03 pm

Here http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... pic=4256.0 we describe two completely identical in every detail MTB attack on two different vessel - 12/01/1940 Santos and 18/12/1940 Birkenfels with directions to the sources. Even attacked the same MTB. Is this a bug, and details the attack on one of these ships transported to another?

Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:40 pm

Re: MTB 30

Postby Admin » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:36 pm

Thanks for your enquiry regarding the sinking of the Birkenfels and the Santos. Unfortunately, I found the narrative in the thread a bit difficult to follow and wasn't sure why the same Jefferson quote from Coastal Forces at War was used twice in support of the two different vessels. What is clear from other sources such as Home Waters MTBs & MGBs by Len Reynolds, is that there was little in the way of offensive actions carried out by Coastal Forces in the early period of their formation which would include January 1940, and there is no recorded action for that time frame. Reynolds states that the first successful torpedo attack by MTBs only took place on 8th September 1940, by MTB 15 and MTB 17 on an ammunition ship anchored off Ostend. The later attack in December of that year involving Lt Jeramin recorded in the same book, mentions an intelligence report that picked up a plain language distress call from a vessel of 6,000 tons, but does not name the vessel. Seedie's List of Coastal Forces Awards lists Jermain as having been awarded the DSC for this action and does name the vessel as the Santos. Lastly MTBs 29, 31, and 32 were not completed until June and July 1940. Hope this helps.

CAM
Sub Lieutenant
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:49 am

Re: MTB 30

Postby CAM » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:43 pm

It is unclear to attack any vessel relates the story of Jefferson, which is the same for both. Given the link German KTB indicate that both ships were attacked by MTB depth charges.

Laut KTB BSW

  1-12-1940: Geleite sind wegen Nebel nur teilweise durchgeführt. Die
             Vorposten-Rotte V 2004 2009, die vor Vlissingen wegen Nebels
             mit ihrem Geleit geankert hat, ist nachts nach den bisher
             eingegangenen Meldungen von feindl. Schnellbooten und
             Flugzeugen trotz des Nebels angegriffen worden.
Nach den jetzt eingegangenen Unterlagen scheint es sich nur um einem Schnellbootsangriff, der aber erfolgreich abgeschlagen ist, zu behandeln. Die Beschädigungen des Transport "H 41" scheinen nicht wie zunächts angenommen, auf Bombertreffer, sondern auf eine WB (Wasserbomb) eines feindl. Schnellbootes zurückzuführen sein. Der Gefechtsbericht der Vorpostenboote muss abgewartet werden.


KTB der Skl:

1-12-1940: Britische Schnellboote erzielen in der Nacht zum 1.12. bei Angriff auf Geleitweg „Rosa“ vor Westerschelde Torpedotreffer auf Dampfer „Santos“. Es ist der erste englischen Schnellbootserfolg in diesem Kriege! Schiff bleibt schwimmfähig. Die in Geleitsicherung stehende Flottille 204 meldet die wahrscheinliche Vernichtung von 2 Schnellbooten ein Boote offenbar schwer

According to KTB Adm i.d. Niederlande:

At the time of the sinking H 32 was anchored off Vlissingen (Flushing) together with the H 31, 1512 and Vp and Vp 1510. There was a heavy fog at the time. Aboard the Vorpostenbooten the explosion heard but not seen. The H 32 had a 48 man crew (including 9 Flaksoldaten) of which 7 man were missing.
On the beach of Dishoek (near Vlissingen) an undamaged torpedo was found together with the remains of a second one.


Ermain confirms that he torpedoes in both cases does not hit the target. Other sources confirm that Santos was injured and taken away for repair in Amsterdam and Birkenfels sunk, both in Vlissingen. But there are sources claiming that Santos was damaged aircraft Birkenfels hit a mine, exhibited MTB http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4012-25DEC02.htm or torpedo submarine (?), December 5 MTB 32, MTB 29 and MTB 31 in Vlissingen ship sank Paranaguá http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=tdb ... &lpg=PA151&, who died on December 5 at a mine Den Helder. I would like to understand which of these ships actually sunk 4th MTB Flotilla and under what circumstances.

Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:40 pm

Re: MTB 30

Postby Admin » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:22 am

Just to clarify, the poster darius on the Marine Archiv forum post linked to above quotes the passage from the Jefferson book twice. This text appears on page 133 of that volume, but is not repeated elsewhere in the book to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps the poster meant to quote one passage from Coastal Forces at War and a second, different one from Naval Warfare in the English Channel which he mentions in his post.

CAM
Sub Lieutenant
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:49 am

Re: MTB 30

Postby CAM » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:40 pm

Thank you. I also suggested that any description of attack has been applied to two cases. Then to attack a ship this description refers? Based on excerpts from the German documents, a description of the attack Santos. But who then sank Birkenfels? And whether or 4th MTB Flotilla sank two trawlers 10/11 October in Calais, and one of them with depth charges?

Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:40 pm

Re: MTB 30

Postby Admin » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:26 pm

Having had the chance to look at this in more depth I think there are some clarifications to be made with regards to the account of these events given in Coastal Forces at War by Jefferson.

I would just like to preface my comments with the following observation: Len Reynolds in compiling Home Waters MTBs & MGBs, spent years researching the subject, and as the former officer of a boat, had the benefit of personal contact with many of his fellow officers and their boat crews who completed questionnaires for him, and who supplied him with recollections and such documents or records as they had in their possession. He was also able to liaise with, and receive a lot of help from, the Naval Historical Branch, which is the Royal Navy’s own research facility, as well as the Imperial War Museum, and also the official historian of the former Coastal Forces Veterans Association (CFVA). Although the history he recorded is far from exhaustive, owing to the density of the subject, it remains as accurate a source as any in print.

There are three separate attacks involving boats of the 4th MTB Flotilla for the months of October, November and December whose details, as recorded by Reynolds in Home Waters MTBs & MGBs at War, may be found in full below. Jefferson in Coastal Forces at War mentions two of these, the October attack and the December attack, but I believe he has confused the details of the December attack on the Santos, with those of the November attack, which he doesn’t mention in his book. Jefferson has the December attack featuring torpedo misfires and a run-in by Jermain using depth charges, which were actually a feature of the November attack. The November attack saw one miss and one misfire with the two torpedoes used, with an unnamed vessel then attacked by depth charges, and presumably damaged but not sunk. The December attack featured the successful deployment of two torpedoes against the Santos, and a third torpedo against a trawler.

Lieutenant Dennis Jermain was awarded a Mention in Dispatches for the October attack in which two enemy trawlers were sunk and a DSC for which the London Gazette reads “For gallantry and enterprise in attacking and damaging a large enemy supply ship off the Dutch Coast”. Seedie’s List of Coastal Forces Awards says of this award “For damaging the enemy merchant ship SANTOS off Flushing on 30 November 1940". This is where things get a little confusing again since Reynolds has the November attack occurring on an unnamed vessel off the Scheldt, and the attack off Flushing on the Santos as being in December, so it is unclear whether this detail is an error in Seedie, or whether the Santos was known to have been off Flushing earlier and was the vessel damaged at that time by depth charges, and then struck again a week later by torpedoes in the December attack.

The following three attacks are recorded by Reynolds for late 1940 involving the 4th MTB Flotilla.

11 October 1940 – Attack on a group of trawlers off Calais
MTB 22 (Lt Cole), MTB 31 (Lt Jermain) and MTB 32 (Lt Poland) attacked a group of trawlers with torpedoes, with one being sunk immediately, and a second crippled, which Jermain in MTB 31 finished off using two depth charges, with thirty-four prisoners taken and delivered to Dover.

30 November 1940 – Attack on an unnamed vessel off the Scheldt Estuary
Reynolds account of this attack is based on personal correspondence with Lt Jermain (MTB 31), and states Jermain attacked ships at anchor off the Scheldt but missed with his first torpedo, while his second torpedo misfired. He then went in and dropped a depth charge under one vessel which resulted in an explosion and ‘great spouts of water’ from under the boat, but did not hang around to observe the result.

7 December 1940 – Santos plus one trawler sunk in an attack off of Flushing
This success was followed a week later, on 7 December, by another patrol by the 4th Flotilla off Flushing. MTB 32 (Lieutenant R Ellis RN) led, followed by 29 (Lieutenant C A James and 31 (Jermaine). After several hours patrolling, they suddenly encountered, at 100 yards range, a large merchant ship at anchor. After adjusting range and firing angle, Ellis and James each fired one torpedo and both hit. As they disengaged, they were confronted by a flak trawler whose gunners, fortunately, had not yet learned to fire low. As a bonus, a torpedo from Jermaine’s boat sank the trawler. The MTBs suffered no damage and no casualties. The merchant ship was later found to be the Santos, and her loss was confirmed. (The detail regarding the Santos was supplied by the Naval Historical Branch)

Image
© IWM (A 4253)IWM Non Commercial Licence

Lieutenant Dennis Jermain RN (second from left, front row), CO of MTB 31, with the crew on return from sinking a merchant ship with depth charges in the Scheldt estuary, 30 November, 1940.

CAM
Sub Lieutenant
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:49 am

Re: MTB 30

Postby CAM » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:18 pm

Thank you. According to Santos unclear. According to all reports and links, which I quoted and others, Santos has been damaged is November 30th. The Germans have no evidence that on December 7 was attacked and hit by a ship either.

Brian Holmes
Commander
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 3:26 pm
Location: Portsmouth

Re: MTB 30

Postby Brian Holmes » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:51 pm

MTB_30 Camper & Nicholson 11/7/40

Birthday Honours 1941
MID ACMtrMch Aynsley Oscar Nithsdale Forsyth P/MX66148

Known Crew

Lt Hardress Llewelyn Lloyd HMS Frobisher (Training Cruiser) 1935, HMS Delhi (Cruiser) 1935-37, HMS Devonshire (Cruiser) 1937, HMS Encounter (Destroyer) 15/10/38. 1st MTB Flotilla Commanding Officer MTB 06 08/07/39 – 4/40 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe Commanding Officer MTB 34 30/8/40 -8/42 For an attack on an enemy convoy in the Dover Straits 3/3/42 MID. 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe Commanding Officer MTB 30 8/42 Assistant Torpedo Officer at HMS Jackdaw (Air Station at Craill, Fife 2/8/43-12/43. Torpedo Officer in HMS Colossus (Aircraft Carrier) 23/2/44 – 46. HMS Dolphin 1946-48, HMS Myngs (Destroyer) 1950, HMS Barossa (Destroyer) in command 1954-56, HMS Vernon in command 1961-63, HMS Tiger (Cruiser) in command 1963-65. Naval ADC to the Queen 1965-66, Commodore Amphibious Forces Far East Fleet 1966. Born 10/10/17 and died at Yeovil in 01/2001. DSC 1942 and CBE 1967
Lt Peter McGeogh Corsar RNVR Lt 28/8/39 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe Commanding Officer MTB 30 15/07/40 TALtCdr HMS Vernon 1944 Born 26/9/13 and died in Portsmouth 1/98
Lt C A James RN Commanding Officer MTB 29 09/40 Commanding Officer MTB 30 1941 and Senior Officer 4th MTB Flotilla

TLt Derek George Harbroe Wright RNVR served at the Dunkirk in a tug HMS King Alfred TSLt 27/6/40 HMS Beehive (Felixstowe) 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe First Lieutenant MTB 30, TLt 27/6/41 12th MTB Flotilla Based at Portsmouth and Dartmouth Commanding Officer MTB 331 13/10/41 4th MTB FlotillaCommanding Officer MTB 32 7/3/42 For attack on enemy supply ships and E Boats in the Nore area 28/7/42 DSC 1942 22nd MTB Flotilla Based at Lowestoft and Felixstowe Commanding Officer MTB 238 8/42 - 44, Senior Officer 22nd MTB Flotilla mid 1943, HMS Mantis (Lowestoft) 1/44 New Year Honours List DSC* 4th MTB Flotilla Based on Lowestoft Commanding Officer MTB 458 7/44 For actions in the Nore area 3 and 13/7/44 DSC** 1944 TALtCdr 7/8/44 Commanding Officer MTB 687 7/8/44 and Senior Officer 58th MTB Flotilla till the end of war For an action off the Hook of Schouwen 24/8/44 MID. MTB 704 73rd MTB Flotilla Based at Portsmouth and Portland Commanding Officer MTB 5008 1/45. Senior Officer MTBs HMS Hornet 11/45 TACdr Born 29/9/15 in Mortlake, Surrey and died 10/5/2008 in Taunton, Somerset He had been with the Brooke-Bond tea company before the war, to which he returned in 1946. He served in Calcutta, Ceylon and East Africa, rising to a place on the board, controlling the company’s global tea-buying and planting activities. He served on several governing bodies dealing with tea production and by 1971 he was President of the Tea Buyers Association
TLt A G Halstead RNVR TASLt HMS Beehive (Felixstowe) 4th MTB Flotilla First Lieutenant MTB 30 11/10/41 Commanding Officer 1942 TLt 1/10/43 16th MTB Flotilla Commanding Officer MTB 279
TSLt Paul Alfred Berthon RNVR TSLt 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe First Lieutenant MTB 30 09/40 Commanding Officer MTB 31 11/40 – 11/41 For damaging the enemy merchant ship Santos off Flushing 30/11/40 MID 6th MTB Flotilla Commanding Officer MTB 219 TLt 15/3/41 For an action in the Dover Straits 27/11/41 DSC Commanding Officer MTB 46 23/03/42 St Christopher for MLs 25/9/42 HMS Midge (Great Yarmouth) Commanding Officer MGB 632 HMS Hornet 1945 Born 18/5/14 in Beverley district, East Riding of Yorkshire and died 25/6/2005 in North Devon district, Devon
TLt Robert Varvill RNVR TASLt First Lieutenant MTB 34 14/08/40 TSLt 31/3/41 4th MTB Flotilla HMS Beehive (Felixstowe) 4/8/41 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe Commanding Officer MTB 30 4/8/41 TLt 1/6/42 Commanding Officer MTB 78 01/06/42 7th MTB Flotilla Based on Bastia Commanding Officer MTB 421 8/1/44 For offensive sweeps off the west coast of Italy 5/44 DSC For an attack on an enemy convoy off La Spezia 27/5/44 MID Commanding Officer MTB 309 and Senior Officer 10th MTB Flotilla 23/1/45 Queen's Commendation (Civil): District Officer Calabar Nigeria 1951 Born 31/3/20 and died in Sussex 22/2/03
TSLt Geoffrey William Elton RNVR Prob TSLt 24/2/41 12th MTB Flotilla Based at Portsmouth and Dartmouth MTB 329 30/10/41 HMS Beehive (Felixstowe) 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe MTB 30 3/42 Killed in action 7/6/42 Son of Sydney George Elton, and of Dorothy Joan Elton, of Eastbourne. Buried in Sedlescombe John the Baptist Church
TASLt A R Waller RNVR TASLt First Lieutenant MTB 30 08/06/42 TSLt 16/6/42 MTB 686 26/4/43 TLt 1/5/44 MTB 2001

TASLt Edwin Hudson RNVR Ord 4/41 HMS Somali (destroyer) HMS King Alfred TASLt 7/11/42 spare officer for 4th MTB Flotilla HMS Beehive (Felixstowe) First Lieutenant MTB 30 Missing Presumed Killed in action 18/12/42 Son of Ernest Hudson, and Lucy Wilson, of Wellingborough, Northamptonshire. Born 7/11/1922 in Wellingrborough, Northamptonshire
ACMtrMch Aynsley Oscar Nithsdale Forsyth P/MX66148 4th MTB Flotilla Based at Felixstowe MTB 30 Birthday Honours 1941 MID
AB Angus Finlayson 4th MTB Flotilla MTB 30 Died of Wounds received in action 18/12/42 Aged 25. Son of John and Elizabeth Finlayson, of Applecross. Buried in Applecross Churchyard
AB George Richard Mackenzie Nisbet P/JX 323212 MTB 30 Missing Presumed Killed in action 18/12/42 Aged 19 when MTB 30 is lost on a mine in the North Sea. Son of James Richard and Isabel Katherine Nisbet, of Anstye, Sussex
OTel Douglas George Miller 4th MTB Flotilla MTB 30 Missing Presumed Killed in action 18/12/42 Aged 20 when MTB 30 is lost on a mine in the North Sea. Son of Albert George and Hilda Agnes Miller, of Forest Gate, Essex

Wartime Activities
4th MTB Flotilla
Based at Felixstowe
31/8/40 Minelaying destroyers HMS Express, HMS Esk and HMS Ivanhoe were mined in an uncharted minefield off Texel. HMS Esk is sunk with only one survivor.
Forty miles northwest of Texel in position 53 25N, 3 48E, destroyer HMS Express struck a mine at 2307.
Destroyers HMS Esk and HMS Ivanhoe going to her aid also struck mines, at 2325 and 0051 on 1st September, respectively.
HMS Leda and HMS Saltash, tugs St Cyrus, Irishman, Norman and Wheeldon, MTB 29, MTB 30 and MTB 31 went to assist destroyer HMS Express
All but thirty seven of HMS Ivanhoe's crew were transferred to MTB 14, MTB 16 and MTB 17 which had arrived at 0800. At 1415, the remaining crew were transferred to MTB 15 and HMS Ivanhoe was abandoned as she was rapidly sinking
However, later when HMS Ivanhoe was reported as still afloat by a British aircraft, destroyer HMS Kelvin and MTB 30 were ordered to search for her.
4th MTB Flotilla
MTB 30, MTB 31, MTB 32, MTB 34. MTB 69, MTB 70
30/11/40 MTB 32 (SO), MTB 31 and MTB 30 departed Harwich to investigate German shipping off Flushing. En route, MTB 32 broke down and returned to Harwich. MTB 31 and MTB 30 encountered an anchored German convoy off the Schelde. MTB 30 was damaged by German gunfire and forced to withdraw while MTB 31 damaged German steamer Santos (5943grt) by dropping a depth charge alongside She is later raised and returned to service
18/12/40 MTB 30, MTB 31 and another MTB from 4th MTB Flotilla with the Flotilla leader aboard are to investigate Flushing but the third MTB breaks down and returns to harbour. MTB 30 and MTB 31 encounter an anchored German convoy off the River Scheldt whilst running on main engines. MTB 31 misses with torpedoes fired by hand and drops two depth charges below the freighter Birkenfels ( 6322 tons) causing the vessel to sink. MTB 31 goes so close to the ship that her bow touches. MTB 30 is hit by gunfire with all hydraulic equipment out of action as well as steering and torpedo launching gear. MTB 30 loses contact and returns to harbour.
1/42 4th MTB Flotilla
Based at Felixstowe
MTB 30, MTB 31, MTB 32, MTB 34 are at Felixstowe
MTB 22 (SO) and MTB 29 are at Brightlingsea under repair
MTB 69 is on the Thames repairing to complete 28th January
MTB 70 at Portsmouth paid off under repair
6-7/6/42 MTB 30 (Senior Officer embarked), MTB 70, MTB 72 and MTB 241 are in action with torpedo boats. MTB 70 hits and sinks a torpedo boat with a torpedo. MTB 30 and MTB 70 are damaged by return fire. MTB 72 and MTB 241 attack E Boats and a large barge.
6/10/42 MGB, 75, MGB 76, MTB 29, MTB 30, MTB 70 and MTB 72 are sent to intercept a large merchant vessel reported north east of Boulogne and encounter R77 – R88 with M21, M25, M38 and M153. MGB 76 comes under fire from R77, R83, R85 and R87, is hit in the petrol tank compartment and set on fire. There is an explosion and MGB 76 eventually sinks. MTB 30 and MTB 75 are damaged.
MTB 29 sinks after a collision.
18/12/42 MTB 30 strikes a mine in North Sea blowing off the forward section. The Commanding Officer is blown overboard but climbs onto wreckage of the forward section floating nearby. MTB 241 rescues survivors and attempts a tow however MTB 30 sinks. AB Finlayson dies of wounds before reaching harbour.

CAM
Sub Lieutenant
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:49 am

Re: MTB 30

Postby CAM » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:34 pm

The following three attacks are recorded by Reynolds for late 1940 involving the 4th MTB Flotilla.
11 October 1940 – Attack on a group of trawlers off Calais
30 November 1940 – Attack on an unnamed vessel off the Scheldt Estuary
7 December 1940 – Santos plus one trawler sunk in an attack off of Flushing

Reynolds writes about the attack MTB 18 December?


Return to “Motor Torpedo Boats”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron