MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Motor Torpedo Boats (MTB)
CAM
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MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:30 am

Good afternoon. Help me with information about the details of attacks against MTB and MGB raider "Michael" and his escort at night in the Channel 14/03/1942. In the literature of the battle written very little.

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby Admin » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:01 pm

Hello Cam

Can you please clarify what it is you are asking. Are you asking about an action on the night of 14 March, 1942 involving Royal Navy MTBs and MGBs, against a German coastal convoy? Also, is the Michael to which you refer SS Michael, a Latvian steamer seized by the Germans? Can you perhaps point us in the direction of a source you are aware of that mentions this action.

Thanks
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CAM
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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:48 pm

I mean this fight

13.– 14.3.1942
Kanal
Dt. Hilfskreuzer Schiff 28 / Michel (FKpt.d.R. v.Ruckteschell) passiert, gesichert durch die 5. T-Flottille (FKpt. Schmidt) mit Seeadler, Iltis, Jaguar, Falke und Kondor sowie 9 M-Booten, den Kanal. In heftigen Gefechten mit brit. MTB, MGB und Zerstörern werden die Zerstörer Walpole und Fernie beschädigt. Schiff 28 erreicht wohlbehalten am 14.3. Le Havre, am 15.3. St. Malo und am 17.3. La Pallice, von wo es am 20.3. in den Atlantik ausläuft.


http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/42-03.htm

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:28 pm

Description of the battle from the German source

While en route from Flushlng-Le Havre under escort of the 5th Torpedo Boat Flotilla, the 2nd Motor Minesweeper Flotilla, and vessels of the 2nd Minesweeper Flotilla, ship "28" was attacked by light enemy naval forces between 0330 and 0710. At first our vessels had an encounter with enemy PT boats, one of which burst into flames, and 2 others were damaged with certainty. At about 0645 4 enemy destroyers of the KH class entered into the engagement, attacking from the dark horizon in the west. They were located by means of flares, and were attacked by the 5th Torpedo Boat Flotilla and the Minesweepers. Simultaneously the PT boats attacked astern in a pincer action. 1 destroyer was seriously damaged and probably sunk. 1 PT boat was destroyed. Later our force was attacked by 3 enemy torpedo planes, one of which was shot down by a German fighter. Strong fighter cover prevented further attacks by enemy planes, which maintained contact until our ships entered Le Havre. We suffered no losses or damage during the entire operation. At 2100 the force proceeded from Le Havre to the west. See Telegram 2230 for a preliminary brief report.
https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygerm ... m_djvu.txt

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby Admin » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:24 am

Thanks for the explanation and for the links which are very useful. I'll take a look at what has been recorded from the Royal Navy side with regards to this action and get back to you with whatever I can find.

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:17 pm

S.Roskill of the battle in writing

The German traffic moved along the North Sea and Channel coasts almost entirely by night, and in short stages from one port to the next. Full advantage was taken of bad weather, and for specially important movements very powerful and numerous escorts were provided. It was thus not only hard for our light forces and aircraft to find the enemy, but very difficult for the former to penetrate the screening escorts in order to engage the principal targets. We now know that two disguised raiders passed successfully down-Channel during the present phase. The first one was the Michel (Raider H) which left Kiel on the 9th of March and reached Flushing four days later. There she picked up a strong escort of five torpedo-boats and nine minesweepers, and started her passage down-Channel on the evening of the 13th. Early next morning light forces (six M.T.Bs and three M.G.Bs) sent out from Dover were in touch with the convoy; but our wireless traffic had given the enemy warning of their approach. The coastal craft located their quarry close to the French coast, but the enemy had been thoroughly alerted. His shore batteries fired starshell to illuminate the scene, and the attackers were met by such concentrated gunfire that they could not penetrate the screen. Soon after this skirmish five destroyers, which had been on patrol off Beachy Head, arrived and engaged the German escort; the Windsor and Walpole fired torpedoes, but none of them hit. Little damage was in fact done to either side, and the raider safely reached Havre on the afternoon of the 14th. She then coasted by stages to La Pallice, where she made her final preparations for her cruise. She sailed for the South Atlantic on the 20th of March.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... -II-6.html

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby Admin » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:57 pm

That is a very good find as it happens as I haven't been able to find out much at all.

I have come across the German war diaries before and they featured in the Mysterious battle at Maun Island thread on the forum. In that earlier one, there was no correspondence at all between what was being claimed in the German diaries and any known actions by the Royal Navy, with no known casualties for the day in question either. In this instance the account of the action on the Hyperwar site would suggest there must be a formal record of the night's events somewhere, possibly in the Public Record Office at Kew, in London.

I think the problem, is that there is no day-by-day account available for events in the Channel from the perspective of the Royal Navy, and the principal books on the subject such as Home Waters MTBs & MGBs by Len Reynolds, and The Battle of the Narrow Seas by Peter Scott, are impressionistic and only discuss the more notable events. As it happens, both those books cover the events of the following night, in which S 111 was briefly captured before being abandoned, and for which there is a match in the German War diary, which provides some interesting information. So it would seem the events of the previous evening passed off without incident from the perspective of Coastal Forces, with no known casualties, and that the action mainly involved the Royal Navy destroyers.

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:53 pm

Germans write
https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygerm ... m_djvu.txt
March 14, 1942 CONFIDENTIAL
According to the radio intercept service a German force was located by Dover at 0330 eight miles north of Calais on southwest course,, and motor gunboats were ordered to attack him. In the 0445 report torpedo boat "34" of the engagement was intercepted.


MTB 34 was a member of the first attack.

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby Admin » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:22 am

If MTB 34 was involved, it was known to be part of the 4th MTB Flotilla which may have been operating out of Dover at the time. According to Home Waters MTBs & MGBs other boats in this flotilla were MTBs 22, 29, 30, 24, 25, 28, 31, 32, and later on MTB 69, 70, 71 and 72.

The diary extract makes mention of:
...an encounter with enemy PT boats, one of which burst into flames, and 2 others were damaged with certainty.
but there are no known boat losses amongst Coastal Forces for that date or any around it, and there are no known casualties within the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records for that date either, so there doesn't appear to be any correlation between what is claimed and what is known in this regard at any rate.

Sorry not to be of anymore assistance. If I do come across anything later I will add it to the thread.

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:37 pm

Thank you.
Night 28/11/1941 British tried to intercept the raider "Komet", who was returning to Germany from the Atlantic. Dover came two groups MTB - MTB-218, -219, -56 and -221 and MTB-44, -45, -47 and -48. Out of Ramsgate MGB-14 and -41. MTB-221, -56 and -48 returned harbor because of malfunctions. The attack began at 04.10. Escort raider suffered from shooting each other on the MTB-219 killed one sailor, but the raider left unscathed. What British MTB MGB participated in the attack? They managed to release their torpedoes?

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby Admin » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:12 pm

I haven't been able to find anything more about this particular attack. I presume this was an earlier passage of Komet through the Channel prior to the attempt on the 13th/14th October 1942, when it was torpedoed by MTB 236 under the command of Sub Lieutenant Robert Drayson.

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:59 pm

I haven't been able to find anything more about this particular attack. I presume this was an earlier passage of Komet through the Channel prior to the attempt on the 13th/14th October 1942, when it was torpedoed by MTB 236 under the command of Sub Lieutenant Robert Drayson.
Yes. Drayson torpedoed "Comet" at the beginning of his second campaign. I wrote about this fight, which occurred at the end of his first campaign.
Record of the deceased with MTB-219 28/11/1941
MTB.219
DE VIT, Charles A C, Act/Petty Officer, P/JX 138293, DOW
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1941-11NOV2.htm

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:53 pm

Germans wrote

CONFIDENTIAL
12 May 1942

2. Own Situation ;

The 5th Torpedo Boat Flotilla had a brief brush with British PT boats off Dunkirk on route "Rosa" during the night of 11 May while en route to Hook of Holland. A pincer attack attempted by 4 British PT boats was detected in time and repulsed. No hits on the enemy vessels were observed.
https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygerm ... m_djvu.txt

About this battle writes commander of the 5th flotilla Schmidt. What MTB at that time were in the area and attacked the German ships?

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:09 pm

I haven't been able to find anything more about this particular attack.
German raider KOMET departed Cherbourg early on the 27th, escorted by torpedo boats T.7, T.4, and T.11 and minesweepers M.10 and M.153. The cruiser spent the day in Le Havre and departed that night with the three torpedo boats, five minesweepers, and six R boats.
Early on the 28th, the Dover Command was involved in attacking the merchant cruiser off Boulogne and Dunkirk as it returned to Germany.
MTB.218, MTB.219, MTB.221, and MTB.56 had departed Dover and proceeded to number 8 buoy. MTB.45, MTB.44, MTB.47, and MTB.48 had departed Dover and proceeded to S.buoy. MGB.14 and MGB.41 had departed Ramsgate and proceeded to V buoy.
En route MTB.221, MTB.56, and MTB.48 developed engine troubles and returned to harbour.
Cruiser KOMET was undamaged, but MTB.219 damaged one of the escorts which was last seen with three R boats standing by.
The Coxswain of MTB.219 was wounded and later died of wounds.
Torpedo boat T.4 was damaged by fire from T.12, and a dud fired by one of the minesweepers. One of the MTBs caused personnel casualties on the torpedo boat with machine gun fire, wounding four, including the commanding officer. T.7 was also hit by machine gun fire, causing three dead and three wounded.

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4111-38NOV02.htm

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:11 pm

If the British archives have no documentary evidence of the participation of MTB and MGB in the attacks on the German commercial raider and his escort in the Channel 14/03/1942, may they never existed? Perhaps S.Roskill repeated the German version of the fight, and in fact the Germans were shooting at targets, which were only in their imaginations, and painted it as a reflection of the successful enemy attack?

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby Admin » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:58 pm

There probably is a report of this night's incident by the Admiralty in the archives at Kew, but we don't possess a complete digest of daily events for this time period ourselves, and the main books on the subject only select certain, notable incidents.

It would seem from what Roskill is saying, as quoted below, that there was an encounter at sea that night, but that the Admiralty regarded the skirmish as inconclusive, so it is not clear what ships or boats the Germans thought had exploded or sunk. It may be that some things are getting lost in translation here, but the German reports of these incidents never seem that reliable.
Early next morning light forces (six M.T.Bs and three M.G.Bs) sent out from Dover were in touch with the convoy; but our wireless traffic had given the enemy warning of their approach. The coastal craft located their quarry close to the French coast, but the enemy had been thoroughly alerted. His shore batteries fired starshell to illuminate the scene, and the attackers were met by such concentrated gunfire that they could not penetrate the screen. Soon after this skirmish five destroyers, which had been on patrol off Beachy Head, arrived and engaged the German escort; the Windsor and Walpole fired torpedoes, but none of them hit. Little damage was in fact done to either side, and the raider safely reached Havre on the afternoon of the 14th.

CAM
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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:58 pm

If there was a battle with the MTB, it would be a memoir describing it, or the memories of participants in the forums. But we have nothing. Described in detail with respect to only attack the British destroyers, with their names and the injuries.

CAM
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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:23 pm

Here http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... Fernie.htm write that (For details see HOLD THE NARROW SEA by P Smith, THE BATTLE OF THE NARROW SEAS by P Scott and Naval Staff History.)
That in these books written about the participation of MTB and MGB in the battle with the raider and his escort of 14 March 1942?

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby Admin » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:16 am

If there was a battle with the MTB, it would be a memoir describing it, or the memories of participants in the forums. But we have nothing. Described in detail with respect to only attack the British destroyers, with their names and the injuries.
I managed to find this in the Admiralty diary of daily events.

593 E/Boat Action (March 14)

Soon after 0200 on March 14, six MTBs and three MGBs were sent from Dover to intercept a large armed merchant vessel of some 5,000 tons, escorted by three destroyers and several E/Boats, reported near Calais proceeding south westwards. Our force was met by a heavy barrage from the shore batteries and escorting craft, and being unable to penetrate the screen, retired without casualties but with some damage to three of the MTBs. At 0553, the BLENCATHRA, FERNIE, CALPE, WINDSOR and WALPOLE, who had been on patrol to the east of Beachy Head, made contact with the enemy in 50. 29 N., 1.14 E., 29 miles south of Dungeness. Passing through the E/Boat screen astern of the destroyers, a torpedo attack was made on the merchant ship between 2,000 and 2,500 yards. One torpedo apparently hit, as a large explosion occurred. Two E/Boats were probably sunk by gunfire, and a destroyer may also have been hit. In this brief action our forces suffered no casualties, and only minor damage to the FERNIE and WINDSOR. The First Sea Lord, in sending his congratulations, said that the manner in which all forces got into close range in spite of heavy opposition reflected great credit in those taking part in this operation.

Admiralty: The War at Sea Vol III Part 1 January - December 1942
So it seems a confrontation did take place but there were no boat losses and casualties recorded on the Coastal Forces side. There is also this useful site which contains details on all the raiders: Marauders of the Sea, German Armed Merchant Raiders During World War 2

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Re: MTB and MGB against the Raiders

Postby CAM » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Thank you very much. It is a pity that it is not known what the MTB and MGB participated in the attack.



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