ML 357 History Required

Motor Launches (ML), Harbour Defence Motor Launches (HDML) & Rescue Motor Launches (RML)
Whimsicalfish
Seaman
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ML 357 History Required

Postby Whimsicalfish » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:31 pm

Hi
I am the new owner of ML 357 - currently a static houseboat, moored at the top of the tidal creek in St Osyth Boatyard, Essex.
We acquired her mid-2017 and having spent 6 months or so of rubbish removal and of inappropriate materials, we are setting about about the task of a sensitive restoration as our new family home. She is a fantastic project, in a lovely location - but as they say for the “faint hearted”!
Between the work, I am trying to piece together some history...
One main question I have is that there seems to be some verbal and online confusion (previous owners, etc) between ML 357 (of which there is some history) and “MGB 357”
Images of boats seems pretty similar and both boats operated in the same area of the Eastern Med, but crew records differ...
If anyone can help, it would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks in anticipation.
Mark

Stephen
Sub Lieutenant
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stephen » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:50 am

Hi Mark and welcome to the forum,

You have indeed got a lovely piece of history there. I remember seeing her for sale, although my better half would never have approved!

To the best of my knowledge, there was no MGB 357. Off the top of my head, I believe the chronological numbers for commissioning MGBs never got to the 200s before the MGB designation was essentially abolished and all new MGBs were designated MTBs. There was an MTB 357, but she was a 70 foot Vosper and not especially similar to ML 357.

There were 24 Fairmile C MGBs with 300 numbers. These are much more similar to your Fairmile B - very similar in length and appearance, although the bridge was further forward and there was no funnel on the C. However, these numbers only ran from 312 to 335 (there is a corresponding gap between these numbers for Fairmile B MLs). There were also a few Fairmile D MGBs with 600 numbers, but all Fairmile D MTBs and MGBs began at 600 and there were no 300s.

I have seen Fairmile Bs, especially those in the Mediterranean theatre, referred to as MGBs before. However, I don't believe this was a formal designation - I think it had more to do with the significant up-gunning that MLs in that theatre received, including the fitting of Bofors guns to significantly enhance their fighting power (relative to those serving in home waters). Similarly, some MLs were fitted with torpedo tubes, but I don't think were ever officially redesignated as MTBs. It could be that you're seeing references to the same vessel, just referred to differently. Crews of vessels changed - sometimes frequently - over the course of the war, so you may be seeing records from different years.

Doubtless someone else here may be able to correct me or add more to this, but I hope it helps.
Cheers,
Steve

Whimsicalfish
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Whimsicalfish » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:25 pm

Hi Steve,
Many thanks for the reply and welcome - sorry for any delays (as you can imagine we are making use of the good weather on the boat for topside repairs!)
Your comments are really helpful - there is quite a lot of information on various forums for our boat ML 357 regarding wartime engagements (confirmed by surviving crew relatives, some of which visited the boat with the previous owner) along with various wartime images on Pinterest that tally with existing ship detailing.
The real confusion I think lies with the account of a surviving relative who has posted images of “MGB 357” on the following website:
http://www.39-45war.com/mgb357.html
It’s a great read of various wartime actions, but at the bottom of the item is picture of an ML, clearly marked “357” on her hull, but much more heavily armoured than corresponding images of our boats more or less the same period - also, she doesn’t appear a Vosper or MTB type, but I’m no expert....the author of the item has also posted an image of our boat in St Osyth (some years ago) and seems sure they are one of the same!
Sure is a bit confusing, as we would like to compile an accurate history for a potential website, etc.
Best
Mark & Jacqueline Walker

Stephen
Sub Lieutenant
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stephen » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:39 pm

Hi Mark & Jacqueline,

No delays at all! I only posted a few hours ago.

I had a feeling I'd seen 357 described as an MGB elsewhere - this is it. The picture certainly appears to be of a Fairmile B ML - the bridge/wheelhouse cabin is correct. It's been fitted with a Bofors gun on the bow and immediately behind it, the two near-vertical poles may be flare launchers or Holman projectors. There appear to be floats on the side of the wheelhouse which give the impression of extra armour, and a scrambling net folded on the ship's railing immediately below them.

I think it's safe to say that 357 was up-gunned exactly along the lines I was thinking. Whether it was officially commissioned as an MGB I wouldn't like to say 100% for certain, but I've certainly never seen it referred to as such in ship's lists I've consulted before (I'm 99% certain it wasn't). I suspect this was an informal category assigned to it at a crew and flotilla level - perhaps even at a command level in the Mediterranean too, to distinguish it from regular (less well armed ) Fairmile B MLs. You'll notice the scanned "Record of Actions in the Aegean" on the website refers to 357 as an ML. Similarly, I don't think the 42nd Flotilla was an MGB Flotilla - most references I can find to it describe it as an ML Flotilla.

I recommend reading The War of the Motor Gun Boats by A J Chapman. He served on a number of Fairmiles in the Mediterranean, including ML 838, which appears on the front cover in a very similar configuration to the picture of 357.

Hope this helps,
Steve

Whimsicalfish
Seaman
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Whimsicalfish » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:35 pm

Hi Steve,
Firstly, apologies to all for various grammar and spelling errors in my previous posts - that will teach me to type with disposable nitrile work gloves on!
Many thanks for your reply and analysis - can’t say I’m not chuffed, as this completes the boat war record for 1943 & now 1944. I think your right about the frequent crew changes, as both years have completely different crews and thus the confusion.
Thanks again - we will be in regular touch with the forum to report on progress ( but as we are a very small team, restoration/repairs progress isn’t that rapid!)
Best
Mark & Jacqueline Walker

Stephen
Sub Lieutenant
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:58 pm

Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stephen » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:05 pm

Hi Mark & Jacqueline,
I'm sure everyone else on the forum will look forward to seeing work in progress as much as me!
Steve

Sparkeyboy60
Seaman
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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:37 pm

Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Sparkeyboy60 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:42 pm

Hi
My father is the last surviving crew member of 357. We gave a load of info and pictures to the previous owner Terry. Please fell free to contact me as my Dad who is now 96 has a lot of memories of 357. We visited it a couple of years ago .
Regards
Peter Turner
Son of William Turner Original Crew member of ML357

David Carter
Sub Lieutenant
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby David Carter » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:58 pm

Peter I don't know where you or your father live, but the London Branch of the CFVA is still going strong and we are meeting next Sunday on HMS Belfast, where we will be showing a film about the restoration of RML 497. Many of our members do not live in London, but we keep in touch by newsletter etc and we would very much like to contact you both. My father was a Sub-Lt on Fairmile B ML 253. David Carter (Secretary CFVA)

Sparkeyboy60
Seaman
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Sparkeyboy60 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:52 pm

Hello David
We Live in Chelmsford Essex not far from ML357 at St Osyth. We would be pleased to be contacted but unfortunately my father is not up to travelling. Whats the procedure for making contact.
Regards
Peter

RogerP
Chief Petty Officer
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Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia

Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby RogerP » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:24 am

Hello Mark & Jacquiline,

Did you receive a message from me a week or so ago?

Roger in Oz.

Whimsicalfish
Seaman
Posts: 7
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Whimsicalfish » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:01 am

Hi All
Thanks for all your recent responses since my last post.
Between restoring ML357, we work as a Landscape Architects, with large projects abroad that take us away from the boat.
Responses in turn;
Thanks Peter - I’ll chat to Terry about those pictures ;) You and maybe your Father would be welcome to come aboard anytime. Just email info@whimsicalfish.com and we can arrange a mutually good time. However, it’s pretty hazardous for the foreseeable future (dodgy access bridge, floors are up and being replaced with suspended timber floors for hull access, no handrails, etc!) but all manageable.
Best
Mark & Jacqueline Walker

Sparkeyboy60
Seaman
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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:37 pm

Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Sparkeyboy60 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:09 pm

Hi
If no luck with getting pictures from Terry can let you have them via email. or get another set printed. I would be able to visit but unfortunately My Dad is not mobile enough at the moment,but can give you the info that he has told me.
Regards
Peter

Whimsicalfish
Seaman
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Whimsicalfish » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:54 pm

Thanks Peter,
Email/scanned copies would be great!
We aim to get some of the wartime archive images together for a sort of picture wall of ML357 for us and any visitors...maybe in the wheelhouse?
We think it would be great tribute, possibly with a dedicated website for the boat that assmbles all of the history and crew.
Your welcome anytime.
Thanks again
Mark

Stuart T
Seaman
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stuart T » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:01 pm

Hi Mark
Really pleased to stumble across this thread - having carried out some research on ML357 intermittently a few years back, I’ve not done anything for the last 18 months or so due to a new addition to the family!
My grandad was Leonard (Len) Thurston, and his service history shows him serving on ML357 from October 1942 until November 1944. He passed away ten years ago, and while he left us with lots of general impressions of his wartime service, no one quite managed to pin down exactly what he and the ship got up to.
My dad, Les, visited the previous owner of the boat several years back, and got some information from him about its history since the war. Dad used to live in Essex but has relocated up to Derbyshire so is no longer local.
I live down in Cornwall, and in between work and (now three) children I occasionally get time to research our family history, which has included some research on ML357. As you indicated in this thread, I found confusing information on the web which seems to put the boat in different places at the same time! I also have found, which is confusing from a personal perspective, that none of the information about crew members list or show my grandad, despite the photos and lists covering the period he served on the boat. I have some photos passed down from grandad which show him on what seems to me to be the right vessel, so I’m not sure quite how to solve that puzzle now that so many of his contemporaries have sadly passed on, but I hope to understand what the boat and its crew did in general.
I have a few notes collated from research online and at the national archives in Kew which I’ll try and attach to the thread or send to you directly if you prefer.
I hope the restoration is going well, it is so pleasing to know the boat will continue to survive.
Stuart Thurston
(I think I’ve managed to attach a scan of one of grandads photos - the note on the back reads “Gun drill, somewhere off Crete, 1944”)
Attachments
F552E566-AD2E-4ED5-BD64-08354DF7A913.jpeg

Admin
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Admin » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:36 am

Hello Stuart

Thanks for your post and for the photo. Just to add to the mystery slightly, I note the presence of the large square looking structure behind your grandfather which doesn’t look like the front or rear of the bridge of a standard Fairmile ‘B’. The photo appears to be taken from the stern of the vessel, so the structure could possibly be that of a Rescue Motor Launch (RML), which could make this a different boat to 357?

Regards
Admin

Stuart T
Seaman
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stuart T » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:43 pm

Ah interesting! Here’s where an expert eye is really what’s needed! Thank you.

Do you think this might imply he actually served on a different boat, despite what the official record shows? Or did seamen move between these types of boats during their service without it showing up on their official record? Or something else?!?! Would welcome any thoughts or advice from those in the know :).

Will try and track down my research summary on ML357 at the weekend and upload it on her for info.

Admin
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Admin » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:40 am

8610E976-09AF-4E40-9DE5-5FE13E64CACE.jpeg
Rescue Motor Launch
8610E976-09AF-4E40-9DE5-5FE13E64CACE.jpeg (95.44 KiB) Viewed 62067 times
This photo shows the square structure characteristic of an RML used to shelter airmen recovered from the water which I believe is what your photo shows too. Depending on the length of service, most Coastal Forces personnel who joined early on in the war could serve on two or more boats, particularly if their boat was sunk or damaged beyond repair. Also, if posted abroad, personnel would normally be returned to Home Waters where possible after two years or so, leading to a different posting. The service records of Coastal Forces personnel always register a ship name which is a shore base that is recognisably a Coastal Forces base, and sometimes the boat number too, but not always. If you have your Grandad’s service record, then it may be possible to determine from the bases and their timeframes which flotilla he may have been with.

Stuart T
Seaman
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Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:15 pm

Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stuart T » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:21 am

Thank you again! More interesting information, thanks.
I see what you mean about the square structure, it does look very much like the structure behind my grandad.
Have attached a picture of the print off of his service record following on from your other comments - any thoughts you have in this would be most welcome.
Cheers
Stuart
Attachments
4DC5FBFA-8E24-43E4-9E4A-29ACDC24DD0D.jpeg
4DC5FBFA-8E24-43E4-9E4A-29ACDC24DD0D.jpeg (101.01 KiB) Viewed 62013 times

Stuart T
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stuart T » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:13 am

For anyone interested, these are notes I made summarising where I was on research on ML357 a couple of years ago, so I (or my dad) could pick it up when we had more time. I spent a day at the National Archives in Kew looking for various things but including spending a fair amount of time on stuff relating to ML357, but haven’t had any time yet to return to it. Hope it may be of use or interest to others:
C26AB8E0-CAC3-4099-9CDA-218CF22BB672.jpeg
F2E31762-FAE5-4D80-90FE-4711B5736759.jpeg

Admin
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Admin » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:09 pm

Thank you for your research thus far Stuart, which I will look at later, and for the sight of your grandad’s service record, which makes sense now.

Collingwood would have been basic training, Excellent at Whale Island, Portsmouth for gunnery training which he would have been selected for and then stuck with during his time on boats. St Christopher was the Coastal Forces training base at Fort William, and Attack a CF base at Portland. Stag was Port Said where he was assigned to MLs and 357 specifically. Sphinx was a transit camp at Alexandria ahead of posting back to the UK and Hornet, the principal CF base at Gosport. Finally he was assigned to RML 528, which is likely the boat in your photo above, before being returned to Victory, main barracks at Portsmouth, ahead of being demobbed. I will try and find out where RML 528 operated from, which was possibly Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth on the East Coast where there was the greatest amount of coverage required for the North Sea and the RAF and USAAF bases in Lincolnshire and their flight paths to the continent.

Admin

Stuart T
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stuart T » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:38 pm

Thank you once again - more fascinating details, helping to join some of the dots!

Just looking back at your previous post with the picture of an RML and realised the number on the boat looks a lot like 528 to me - don’t know if it is but quite a coincidence if so!!

One of the other photos I have of grandad in service, attached below, is annotated ‘off duty, holy Loch (Clyde) 1945’. As far as we know, he was based there for some time as this was where my grandmother and he met (she was a WREN posted up there). So I guess RML 528 operated out of the Clyde at least for some of its time in that period?

Dad and his brother may be doing a bit more work on the research soon, so will update as and when we have anything more on 357
89FEC98F-DDF0-4388-9AE4-8F05096838AB.jpeg

TJM
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby TJM » Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:04 pm

Hi - just come across this thread which I can see hasn’t had any posts for a couple of years. I am currently looking through my Grandfather’s log and album from his time serving in the Med, including as Lieutenant on ML357 from 08/10/1943. His name was Arthur Dongray. Stuart Thurston - one of the photos does list a “Thurston”, your Grandfather I presume!
Tamsin

Bee
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Bee » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:52 am

Hi Tamsin,
I've just written a whole screed and went back to check on a name...and lost the lot. Thus...the brief version : I used to post under the name of BEE on the old WNSF (World Naval Ships Forum)...which, unfortunately has now been "mothballed". (Someone has a gold mine of Naval information in that site.) One of the threads I started was Aegean Memories...for those who were wanting to connect with others from that theatre of WW2. I started it off, with my late Dad's reminiscences of his time aboard ML/MGB 357. She was outfitted with extra weapons and her crew (including my Dad) used to refer to her as an MGB - although, obviously, she was an ML. (That's what caused my Mum and I some confusion when we went looking for information about her.) Unfortunately, as mentioned by Mark, in an earlier post ..that "confusion" made it's way online. We tried to get it corrected...but it didn't happen.
To try to clarify why my Dad would have referred to her as an MGB...we contacted... Leonard Reynolds OBE DSC of MGB 658 (who had written a couple of books about the MGBs in the Med) He wrote back to my Mum and told her that the crews of the modified (extra weaponised) MLs often called them MGB's. Anyway, that's bye the bye. The main reason I have rejoined here is to let you know that I have a photo with ML357's crew, which includes your relative - Lieutenant Dongray. So, if I can recall how to post photos on here, I'll endeavour to do that.
I had been in contact with Mark and Jacqueline, back in May 2019 and they had sounded very enthusiastic about 357's restoration....but I've not had any updates since then. I'm hoping that they'll start re-posting about her progress on here...when they can. I should imagine that Covid19 restrictions would have impeded work over the last year. Like the others posting on here....I'm really pleased that she is being saved and will endeavour to add whatever bits of historic information and photos, I have, of my Dad's, to help her flesh out her story and that of her WW2 crew and activities.
Also, many thanks to the others (esp Stuart) on here who have been posting...it's great to see new material - (info and photos.)
'bye for now,
Bee

Admin
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Admin » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:36 am

Hello Bee

Thank you for your response. I’m sorry to hear you lost what you were writing. Just for future reference there is the ‘Save draft’ facility at the bottom of the text input frame, and then below that again you will see a button marked ‘Attachments’ and that is what you can use to upload image files.

Regards
Admin

Bee
Seaman
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Bee » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:39 pm

Thankyou "Admin",
I'm just a bit rusty...having not posted on a forum for a long time. I will now become an avid user of "save draft" :)
Now I'll try to put an attachment on - I hope it works. The photo is one that we (my late Mum and I) supplied to "Mike" who kindly set up a page for 357, (over 10 years ago, now.) However, as I mentioned before...initially we thought that she was an MGB...so sorry, but this image that I have is labelled as such, and I can't manage to change that. (Unfortunately I don't have the original photo to hand), maybe one of your experts can...please feel free to correct it.
Tamsin you will notice that your Lt Dongray is there (sorry for the errors in the spelling of his name, but my late Dad, Douglas Barrow, was recalling his friends names after 50 plus years.)
Regards,
Bee

Bee
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Bee » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:54 pm

ML 357 Crew sect1a .jpg
ML 357 Crew sect1a .jpg (222.14 KiB) Viewed 41545 times
Image

Bee
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Bee » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:00 pm

Hello Again "Admin", you might want to delete the "non post" mistake I made in my effort to get this photo in place. Hopefully I'll get up to speed on posting....soon.
Regards, Bee.

Admin
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Admin » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:57 am

This photo of the crew of ML 357 was forwarded me by David (Carter) who had in turn been contacted by Peter Turner, the son of crew member William Turner (see messages above).

ml-357-1.jpg
Crew of ML 357 (@ Peter Turner)

Stuart T
Seaman
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Re: ML 357 History Required

Postby Stuart T » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:26 am

Hi - just come across this thread which I can see hasn’t had any posts for a couple of years. I am currently looking through my Grandfather’s log and album from his time serving in the Med, including as Lieutenant on ML357 from 08/10/1943. His name was Arthur Dongray. Stuart Thurston - one of the photos does list a “Thurston”, your Grandfather I presume!
Tamsin
Hi Tamsin!
So good to hear from you, and the others who’ve replied as well. I’ve dropped back in on this thread every so often in the last couple of years hoping someone may have added info! Thank you for keeping the story of the boat and it’s crew moving along :)

As you may have guessed, we’ve not made any further advances in research - COVID etc...

I recognise your grandad’s name from earlier records online, and the blog referred to where there was confusion over ML/MGB name etc.
It would be fantastic to see the photo you refer to naming a ‘Thurston’ if it’s possible? As you may notice on the two later photos posted on here (which I think were on that previous site with history of the boat?), grandad doesn’t appear. It would be great to find there is an image with him confirmed with other members of 357 crew.
Thanks again Tamsin, and you others who’ve added information
Stuart

Whimsicalfish
Seaman
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:52 pm

ML 357 History Required

Postby Whimsicalfish » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:28 pm

Hi All,

Firstly, our apologies for the long absence from the CFV forum!

A quick update. We have continued to work hard on the restoration & renovation of ML357 - it has not been without it's challenges and we have spent much of the time carrying out essential structural repairs to the original internal plywood frames from stern to bow, structural supports underneath the wheelhouse and engine room roof, a new insulated deck has been installed over the original planking to keep her weathertight and the almost complete re-build of the sub-floor and bilge areas!

As Bee mentioned, work slowed considerably through the COVID lockdown, with St. Osyth Boatyard (where she is moored) closed completely for a number of months. Also, during the spring of 2020, during an exceptionally high tide, our old gangway/bridge crashed into the estuary! So, most of 2020 was spent building a purpose made staging platform with hinged access bridge to the boat, thus making access for "crew" & materials much easier!

We are really keen to re-establish contact with all those who were kind enough to supply some history & photographs a couple of years ago and helping us fill in the blanks. We are planning a high-quality website for ML357, dedicated to the boat and crews, with regular updates and photos of the on-going restoration work. For accuracy and image use permissions & credits, we are particularly keen to make contact again with:

Peter Turner (son of crew Bill Turner): we have a large archive of photographs which have finally made there way to us via the boatyard (some of images have been hand-written with crew members, locations, etc), others not.
We are really keen to go through the images in detail, etc. Also, we only have the first A4 sheet of Bills Turner's "My Memories of ML357" starting with "I joined up in 1942" and would really like to see the complete memoir.

Look forward to hearing from Bee, etc again.

All the best
Mark & Jacqueline Walker, ML357


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