Sydney Pryke - Telegraphist

[Rich]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on this forum. I've recently started to research what my Grandad (Sydney Pryke) did in during the war. I know from what I've been told by my parents that he was on MTBs and I think also MGBs and I can tell from his Service Record that he spent the majority of his time at HMS Beehive.

According to his Service Record he was MTB03, MTB44, MTB45, MTB100 and MTB18.

But after September 1941 it makes no more mention of any Royal Navy boats he was on. Leaving a 4 year gap until it says that he was posted on the E-Boat S.205 on 1st June 1945 - presumably that was for testing and trials.

I know that he got badly wounded at one point and ended up in Felixstowe hospital. In fact he had bullets or shrapnel lodged in his back for the rest of his life.

I can also tell from his Service Record that he was issued a "Hurt Certificate" on 7th October 1942, there seems to have been an engagement that boats from Beehive participated in on the 6th of October that resulted in some casualties, so I am wondering if that is related to the "Hurt Certificate".

Can anyone offer any help and advice on if it's possible to get more information, and if so how?

Many Thanks

Richard

[Admin]

Hello Richard

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your enquiry.

Do you have dates for his various known postings please as that may have some bearing on what boat, and what action may have been involved in his injuries. The hurt certificate though issued on 7 October, 1942 may refer to an earlier event. MTB 03 along with MTB 18 were part of the 1st MTB Flotilla which had been at Malta but was recalled in 1939, travelling back to the UK through the French canal system. MTBs 44 & 45 were part of the 5th MTB Flotilla which was based at Dover. MTB 44 was sunk by gun-fire from a German surface ship in the Dover Straits on 7 August 1942. MTB 100 was part of the 3rd MTB Flotilla. If the dates for his service with each boat are available that would help me determine which action may have been involved.

This is recorded within the Admiralty War diary for the 7th August, 1942

Last night 6/7 Force A, M.T.Bs 44 (S.O) 45, and 48 with Force B., M.G.Bs 330 (S.O.) 331 and 324 in company were sent to patrol vicinity of N.E. Varne in anticipation of continued eastward passage of vessels which had arrived Boulogne yesterday morning but whose identity could not be established by air R/C. At 2310 R.D.F. reported one large enemy vessel with some fifteen escorts leaving Boulogne northeastwards at 8 knots. Forces A and B proceeded to intercept north of Blanc Nez at 0020 crossing ahead and engaging from inshore, but without M.T.Bs being able to get into an attacking position owing to very heavy fire from energy vessels and continuous star shell from shore which commenced ¼ hour before our forces closed the enemy. M.T.B.44 was soon disabled and, being close to enemy coast, crew had to abandon ship after destroying their vessel by fire. Crew was however located in Carley Floats half an hour later and embarked by M.G.B. 330 after enemy convoy had passed. M.T.B.45 out of control with C.O. wounded collided with M.G.B.324 who, despite also having action damage, was able to tow M.T.B 45 back to harbour.

There are two photographs from the IWM collection showing MTBs 44 & 45 in The Ferry Dock at Dover (HMS Wasp).

WITH THE ROYAL NAVAL COASTAL FORCE, DOVER. 11 FEBRUARY 1942, DOVER.. Image: IWM (A 7442) IWM Non Commercial License

DOVER NAVAL BASE. 1941.. Image: IWM (A 9921) IWM Non Commercial License

Regards
Admin

[Rich]

Hi Admin

Thank you for very prompt reply, and the interesting information you have provided.

Here are the dates I've been able to extract from his Service Record n.b. the handwriting is poor in places, but I believe I'm accurate:

Vernon (Hornet) 18 Oct 1940
Hornet [Oct 1940]
— (MTB 03) 23 Jan 1941
Attack 29 Jan 1941
Hornet 9 Feb 1941
Boscawen (MTB 03)
( I think ) 29 Jan 1941
Hornet 9 Feb 1941
— (MTB 44) 2 Apr 1941
Beehive 19 May 1941
— (MTB 45) 31 Jul 1941
— (MTB 100) 3 Sep 1941
— (MTB 18) 14 Sep 1941
Hornet 19 Dec 1941
Beehive 9 Mar 1942
Beehive 14 May 1942
— 21 Jul 1943
— (S.205) 1 Jun 1945

Kind Regards,

Richard

[Admin]

Thanks Richard

I hope you don't mind but I've just removed the quote to make the thread a bit clearer.

Does his service record mention when he joined, and or have dates for when and where he trained e.g. Collingwood or Raleigh?? That is, anything prior to 18 October, 1940. And was he regular navy, rather than 'Hostilities Only' as it was known?

Admin

[Rich]

Thanks Admin,

He joined on 21st September 1938, where he was originally posted at "Victory 1". He joined the cruiser, HMS Suffolk on 27th September 1939 and was severly injured (burned) after it was bombed in a Norwegian Fjord on 19th April 1940.

After HMS Suffolk he went back to "Victory 1" and then went between HMS Hornet, HMS Boscawen and HMS Attack (all of which I thought were training bases) before joining HMS Beehive on 19th May 1941.

I believe he spent most the war at HMS Beehive.

I think his Service Record does have gaps and information missing in it. I understand from family that he was aboard HMS Rodney, I think before the war started, and very briefly went on submarines, neither of these are mentioned though.

Thanks for your kind help and I hope this extra info is useful. Between joining MTB18 in December 1941 and the end of the war, there's nothing really of note in his Service Record except for his "Hurt Certificate" on 7th October 1942 (mentioned above).

Kinds Regards,

Richard

[Admin]

Thanks again Richard

A provisional picture is starting to emerge.

He was regular pre-war navy and is being posted, or has asked to join MTBs at the recently formed HMS Hornet, at Gosport. Coastal Forces was just about to formerly commence with the appointment of Piers Kekewich as Rear Admiral Coastal Forces in late October 1940. Prior to that the MTBs had simply been known as MTBs—being addressed that way in official correspondence. MTB 03, would have been back from the Mediterranean for over a year by this time, being literally the third MTB constructed for the Navy in August 1936, and as such, was soon to be pensioned off along with the other early MTBs to become Mine Attendant Craft.

The Coastal Forces base HMS Attack at Portland had just been commissioned in January of 1941, with Boscawen being the Regular Navy base there. Portland was home to anti-submarine research and training, and is where the Motor Anti-Submarine Boats (MASBs) had been situated, which along with the MTBs at Hornet, and those early MLs built or building, were to all come under the umbrella of the newly formed Coastal Forces in late 1940. MTB 44 was one of the new Vosper MTBs which was completed on 1st April, 1941, so it would appear your grandfather joined the crew of this boat from new. I'll check in the Red Lists later when the boats of the 5th MTB officially formed and took up station at Beehive (Felixstowe). The 5th MTB comprised MTB 38 along with 41–48. It would seem he remained in Coastal Forces from that point until the end of the war, so it's a question of understanding what boat or boats he was appointed to throughout that time. Does his service record provide any indication of his rank, and or specialism, such as signals, telegraphy, or coxswain?

Admin

[Rich]

Hi Admin

He was a Telegraphist for most of the war.

So he was an Ordinary Telegraphist on the cruiser HMS Suffolk prior to joining Coastal Forces and by the end of the war, at HMS Beehive, he was a Leading Telegraphist.

I've a couple of questions, if that's OK

If a sailor in Coastal Forces was wounded enough (Grandad had German bullets lodged in his back most of his life), would that tend to mean they were reassigned to a shore based role?

Also, what was the lifespan of a boat in Coastal Forces?
I would imagine they could become obsolete pretty quickly in wartime, not to mention the damage and wear and tear caused by racing around the North Sea at high speeds in all weather!

Many thanks again for your help...

Richard

[Admin]

Hello Richard

Sorry, I missed the part about Telegraphist in the title! but it's useful to learn of his Leading status.

The Admiralty's Red Lists which show deployment and status of boats provides this detail:

13th April, 1941 Red List shows MTB 44 at Dover, having arrived there on 7th April. Only MTBs 42, 43 & 44 of the 5th MTB had been completed at this point.

Following editions of the Red List chart the following:

27th April 1941: MTB 44 is at Dover under Beehive
11th May 1941: MTB 44 & MTB 45 are at Dover
25th May 1941: MTB 44 is at Dover under Lynx (Dover) and MTB 45 is at Dover under Hornet (Portsmouth)
8th June 1941: MTB 44 is at Harwich under Lynx
6th July 1941: MTB 44 is at Harwich under Beehive, MTB 45 is at Portsmouth under Hornet
17th August 1941: MTB 44 (Beehive) & MTB 45 (Hornet) are at Harwich
31st August 1941: MTB 44 (Beehive) & MTB 45 (Beehive) are at Harwich
28th September 1941: MTB 44 (Beehive) is at Harwich, MTB 45 (Lynx) is at Dover.

At this point MTBs 44, 45, 46, 47 & 48 are shown as:– To be transferred temporarily to Dover Command

So basically from shortly after its completion until its loss in August 1942, MTB 44 never actually saw Felixstowe, being at Harwich or Dover continuously. The same was true of MTB 45. MTB 44 continues to be shown for Beehive whilst at Dover, finally coming under Lynx by 18th January, 1942.

MTB 18 was one of the very early British Power Boat MTBs, similar in style to MTB 03, whilst MTB 100 was a one-off type originally designed as a Motor Minesweeper (MMS 51) which was converted to a Motor Torpedo Boat (MTB 100) between 1939 and March 1940. So this too was an early boat, and by 13th September 1941, it together with MTBs 14 and 18 formed the 1st MTB Flotilla at Beehive (Felixstowe), along with MTBs 71 & 72, both of which were Paid Off for repairs. I don't believe this flotilla performed much in the way of frontline duty, if any, being comprised of boats that were later mothballed or repurposed.

It would seem then that he was with MTB 44 at Portsmouth until it left for Dover, and with MTB 45 until it left to join MTB 44 at Harwich. Then he possibly spent some months at Felixstowe with the 1st MTB, before returning to Portsmouth prior to returning to Felixstowe in the Spring of 1942. So that leaves the question of what boat(s) he was serving with at Beehive from March 1942 onwards, and when exactly he sustained his injuries. Given he was treated at Felixstowe this rules out having been injured during his earlier service, so I will look next at what boats were at Felixstowe during the period that he may have served on, even if it was just a temporary assignment.

In answer to your questions, I don't know much about hurt certificates, or how sailors were assessed after being injured, but I do have a correspondent who has previously contacted the Librarian of the Institute of Naval Medicine's Historic Collections, so I am looking to get an introduction made by him, so as I can email them on the matter. One thing which I do know is, the telegraphist's cabins onboard short boats (Vosper MTB, British Power Boat MGB) were quite cramped, and the boats when at speed into a head sea, albeit one they were capable of being in at all, would provide a fairly rough ride, so if you had a serious back injury which you were still recovering from, then that would not be an environment you could likely work in.

As for the boats: the early pre-war designs proved ineffective and were soon repurposed. The MASB concept never worked out and they were converted to early gunboat (MGBs) until the arrival of the British Power Boat 71' MGBs, at which point they too were mothballed, although being very fast boats still, some stripped of their armament were still in service as MASBs in 1944, being used as Fast Despatch Boats and the like during D-Day. The Vospers underwent upgrades in their design, and the short boats were joined by the larger D-Type 'Dog Boats' on the East Coast by Autumn of 1943, so the fleet tended to be a mixed bag of newer boats with older ones, with some of the earlier types hanging on until the end of the war. Engines would be overhauled on a regular basis, and armaments upgraded to keep everything going.

Admin

[Admin]

This is the only action I have been able to find for the date closest to 7th October, 1942. The details are drawn from the Admiralty Diary for 6th October, 1942. MTBs 29, 30 & 70 were part of the 4th MTB Flotilla based at Lowestoft (Mantis) while MGBs 75 & 76 were part of the 8th MGB Flotilla based at Felixstowe (Beehive). MGBs 61 & 64 were part of the 6th MGB Flotilla at Beehive

Engagement off Flushing One E-boat destroyed. M.T.B.29 M.G.B. 76 lost. M.G.B. 75 damaged.

Following is preliminary report of C/F activity night 5/6. At approx. 1830/5 information was received from V.A. Dover that a large M/V with escort had left Boulogne and was proceeding N. E. M.G.Bs. 75 and 76 with M.T.Bs. 29, 30, 70 and 72 were ordered to proceed to vicinity 51° 23’ N. 03° 00' E. with the object of interception and sailed at approx. 1945/5. While in above position at approx, midnight hydrophone contact was made with highspeed engines approaching from S.W. Acting on orders to avoid patrols forces moved slowly off to the N. W. but 3 enemy torpedo-boats and numerous E-boats appeared to port.

The units increased speed and altered course to the North with the gunboats engaging to port. The enemy torpedo-boats fired star shell over the units and E-boats alone followed up but contact was soon lost.

M.G.B 76 then ordered units to R/V 5 miles North of the action area.

The units having R/Vd. and cut were immediately attacked from the S.W. by numerous E-boats. A very confused action ensued while the units were disengaging. Some hits were observed on the E-boats and one was later sighted heavily on fire with an enemy torpedo boat standing by. Shortly after the vessel on fire blew up at approx. 0100/6.

At 0042 a collision occurred between M.T.Bs. 29 and 30. At 0046 M.T.B. 30 asked for M.T.B. 29’s penants and received reply "O.K." At 0050 M.T.B. 30 ordered M.T.B. 29 to return to harbour and received an "R" at 0052. During this exchange of signals the burning ship was observed blazing fiercely. During the fire M.G.B. 76 called for penants and received an answer from all 5 boats, including M.T.B.29. M.G.B. 76 ordered all vessels to R/V 10 miles N.W. of the action area but this proved to be impracticable owing to boats being scattered. Consequently all boats were ordered to return to harbour. During the second action M.G.B. 76 received hits in the petrol tank compartment which caught fire. This fire appeared to be brought under control but left the boat permeated with petrol fumes. At approx. 0640 when 4 miles S.W. of 54A buoy the boat blew up without warning, the wreck burning fiercely.

M.G.Bs. 61 and 64 returning from patrol sighted the fire, proceeded to investigate, and rescued the whole ship’s company except the motor mechanic who was killed. M.T.B. 30 received considerable collision damage to stem. M.T.B. 70 received superficial action damage. M.G.B. 75 received severe underwater damage forward and one serious casualty. No torpedoes fired. (C. in C. Nore, 1752A/6). Add to 1752A/6. Continuous air search through out the day has failed to reveal any trace of M.T.B. 29. She must now be considered lost. (C. in C. Nore, 2310A/6).

[Rich]

Admin,

This is brilliant information.

It makes sense that he may have been involved in the engagement near Flushing on the 6th of October 1942; received injuries from that, and that was the why the Hurt Certificate was issued the following day.

But is there any source of information that would put him there as his Service Record seems sketchy at best!

I really appreciate your help here. Does the site take donations or is there a Coastal Forces charity I could make a donation to?

Thanks again,

Richard

[Admin]

Hello Richard

Thank you for the kind offer of a donation. I don't have any facility for collecting, being content to pass on as much information to any relative of those who served as arguably the best way of preserving the subject for the future.

Not to get ahead of ourselves too much here, since as you infer we do need to firm things up, but MTB 75 & 76 as part of the 8th MGB Flotilla were led by Robert Hichens, who is considered amongst the finest of the Coastal Forces commanders, who was killed in action in April 1943, and about whom a good deal is written, specifically in his own memoir We Fought Them in Gunboats, which was elaborated upon with explanatory sections added in the 2007 publication Gunboat Command, written and compiled by his son Anthony Hichens.

I remain unsure about the specific meaning of the date attached to the Hurt Certificate; whether it is the date of the injury, or merely the date of issue. If the information I have obtained thus far is correct, the procedure for assigning a Hurt Certificate required it to be signed-off by more than one appropriate person of rank, and its unclear as to whether that would happen as soon as the day after a man was injured, if he was still in hospital having his injuries treated, and possibly yet to be fully assessed. However, that said, there do not seem to be any reports of action involving the 8th MGB in the weeks immediately prior to 6th October.

Unfortunately Coastal Forces Action Reports for 1942 (ADM 199/782) does not have a report for the action on 6 October. It’s possible it may have been displaced within another set, although Len Reynolds (Home Waters MTBs and MGBs) who mentions the action, and who normally cites any available reference, does not provide one for this action either, relying on a ‘vague’ summary found eleswhere, and the testimony of the Leading Motor Mechanic of MGB 76, W Donovan, who was one of the survivors.

The action reports often supply full details of casualties and injured, giving their name, rank, number and next of kin details.

If the service record you hold is a mutli page document with a weighty linen texture to it, then I would strongly advise you to apply for his service details from the Pay & Victualling Records via the Royal Navy’s Disclosure Cell. This can take up to six months to come through, but what this may give you is a more complete breakdown of where, and as what, he was serving, which might tease out greater detail around the time he spent at HMS Beehive

In my own case, I applied for my father’s records, since his service record only records the names of the Coastal Force bases he served at, and not any boat numbers. I knew the boat numbers from annotated photographs he had, and the records from the Disclosure Cell confirmed these, and even provided the name of the ship he was booked passage on to return from abroad in late 1943.

I'll continue to lookout for any information about the action in the meantime.

Regards
Admin

[John110547]

Hi Admin

MTBs 029, 030, 070, 071, 072, 075(2) (4th MTB Flotilla) with MGBs 075 & 076 on 6 October 1942 were waiting at a designated position off the Dutch coast to intercept a large German merchant vessel, which was due to pass their position at approximately 01.30hrs. However, while they waited, the area was illuminated by a star shell & they were attacked by German Minesweepers from the 2nd Minesweeper Flotilla (Ms 021, 025, 038, 153) & their escort from the 2nd R-Boat Flotilla (Rs 077, 078, 079, 080, 081, 082, 083, 084, 085, 086, 087, 088), west of Flushing. During the battle, MGB 076 was attacked by Rs 077, 083, 085, 087 & a shell hit its patrol tank compartment, causing a fire that was quickly extinguished. MTB 029 fired two torpedoes at a minesweeper & altered course & collided with MTB 030; both boats were badly damaged. MTB 030 was badly damaged & ordered to withdraw & return home independently. Minesweeper 021, seeing the damaged MTB 029, altered course, firing into the boat, before ramming it abreast of the bridge. MTB 029 sank with the loss of all 10-crew members. Following the battles, boats started to make their way home; MTB 070, 071, 072 & 075(2) were all slightly damaged by shellfire; MGB 075 was holed below the waterline by shellfire, which took six weeks for repairs to be completed. MGB 076 was badly damaged by shell fire & charred. At 06.35hrs, a fire ignited the petrol tanks of MGB 076 & an explosion blew off its entire canopy around the cockpit & the deck area above the petrol tanks. MGB 076 was engulfed in flames & the crew could not contain the fire this time & the order was given to abandon ship. All the crew, except for the motor mechanic who was killed by the initial explosion, escaped into the Carley raft & paddle to safety before MGB 076 exploded & sunk. MGBs 061 & 064, who were sailing in the area, saw the glare of the explosion & went to investigate, rescuing the crew of MGB 076.

Best regards
John

[Rich]

Hi Admin,

The Service Record is a two page document. The one I received was a photocopy and I can't tell what it's texture is I'm afraid. I had wondered whether I should share the Service Record online, but I'm not sure what the done thing is with that and I'm always a little bit cautious about sharing private info on the internet.

Regarding the Hurt Certificates. The one he received for his serious injuries sustained aboard HMS Suffolk in Norway during "Operation Duck", when the Luftwaffe bombed the ship; I've realised that he recieved that Hurt Certificate 4 weeks after the injuries occurred. Therefore it would seem a Hurt Certificate may not be issued within the immediate timeframe of the action or activity that caused it, so it's possible that if the Certificate for 7/10/1942 relates to when he sustained bullet wounds, then they could have been sustained in the preceding months.

I will apply the Pay & Victualling Records asap, thank you for the advice there. I think my Mum has one or two photos of him (there's a great one of him with shipmates outside a dockside pub enjoying a pint), so I'll see about sharing what we've got as it might give clues.

Thanks for all your help.

Richard

[Rich]

Hi Admin

MTBs 029, 030, 070, 071, 072, 075(2) (4th MTB Flotilla) with MGBs 075 & 076 on 6 October 1942 were waiting at a designated position off the Dutch coast to intercept a large German merchant vessel, which was due to pass their position at approximately 01.30hrs. However, while they waited, the area was illuminated by a star shell & they were attacked by German Minesweepers from the 2nd Minesweeper Flotilla (Ms 021, 025, 038, 153) & their escort from the 2nd R-Boat Flotilla (Rs 077, 078, 079, 080, 081, 082, 083, 084, 085, 086, 087, 088), west of Flushing. During the battle, MGB 076 was attacked by Rs 077, 083, 085, 087 & a shell hit its patrol tank compartment, causing a fire that was quickly extinguished. MTB 029 fired two torpedoes at a minesweeper & altered course & collided with MTB 030; both boats were badly damaged. MTB 030 was badly damaged & ordered to withdraw & return home independently. Minesweeper 021, seeing the damaged MTB 029, altered course, firing into the boat, before ramming it abreast of the bridge. MTB 029 sank with the loss of all 10-crew members. Following the battles, boats started to make their way home; MTB 070, 071, 072 & 075(2) were all slightly damaged by shellfire; MGB 075 was holed below the waterline by shellfire, which took six weeks for repairs to be completed. MGB 076 was badly damaged by shell fire & charred. At 06.35hrs, a fire ignited the petrol tanks of MGB 076 & an explosion blew off its entire canopy around the cockpit & the deck area above the petrol tanks. MGB 076 was engulfed in flames & the crew could not contain the fire this time & the order was given to abandon ship. All the crew, except for the motor mechanic who was killed by the initial explosion, escaped into the Carley raft & paddle to safety before MGB 076 exploded & sunk. MGBs 061 & 064, who were sailing in the area, saw the glare of the explosion & went to investigate, rescuing the crew of MGB 076.

Best regards
John

Hi John

This is really fascinating information, thanks you for posting.

It's really hard to comprehend what it must have been like to have endured bouncing across the North Sea at high speed in all weathers and seasons, in just a cramped wooden boat, and then engaging with an enemy intent on killing you.

Many Thanks

Richard

[Admin]

MTBs 029, 030, 070, 071, 072, 075(2) (4th MTB Flotilla) with MGBs 075 & 076 on 6 October 1942 were waiting at a designated position off the Dutch coast to intercept a large German merchant vessel, which was due to pass their position at approximately 01.30hrs....

John, thank you for the precise details of the action on the 6th October. Have you by any chance come across a reference number to a report for this action; it's usually something starting with MO followed by a number starting with a zero. For example the report for the action on 14th/15th September, 1942 involving MGBs 75, 76, 77 & 81 was MO 012983

Admin

[Admin]

The Service Record is a two page document. The one I received was a photocopy and I can't tell what it's texture is I'm afraid. I had wondered whether I should share the Service Record online, but I'm not sure what the done thing is with that and I'm always a little bit cautious about sharing private info on the internet.

Richard, if you wish I can email you a link and password to upload the document to me privately so as I can look at. I'm able to see your email address from within the Admin area for the forum.

The worst aspect of being a Telegraphist positioned below deck I feel was that in action you would hear the thud of guns going off, principally those of your own boat, whilst high explosive rounds, like large, thick bullets, could come tearing through the boat from either side without warning, ripping through things, and causing all manner of splinters, even if they didn't make a direct hit. An analysis of the overall number of casualties for Coastal Forces which I have made shows that those serving in below deck positions, motor mechanics, stokers, telegraphists formed some 30% of the total killed.

I'll post up a complete list of the boats at Felixstowe around September 1942 later, and then look back at all the incidents involving any of them. Joint operations mounted with MTBs and MGBs sometimes used MGBs from Beehive, and MTBs from Lowestoft (Mantis).

Admin

[Rich]

Hi Admin

Yes, please email me a link and a password and I will upload the Service Record.

Thanks

Richard

[Admin]

This is the complete list of frontline boats which came under Beehive at Felixstowe on 27 September 1942. This provides a useful snap shot of the situation which would have prevailed throughout the period of August 1942–October 1942. As may be seen, individual boats are to be found scattered all over, and their precise status may have varied slightly over the time frame involved, but the thing to note here, is that regardless of geographical location, all these boats came under Beehive for their administration, and that is what a service record would have shown.

The 8th MGB Flotilla had been moved to Dartmouth temporarily in the summer of 1942 to help carry out operations in the Channel, hence the likely reason MGB 78 is still shown as being there. The 22nd MTB Flotilla were in the process of forming and working up to a state of readiness for frontline duty. The 51st ML Flotilla, which were Fairmile 'A' Types, and amongst the earliest of the MLs built, were equipped and deployed as minelayers. Also of note is: MGB 81 has been sympathetically restored, is now at Portsmouth as part of the Historic Dockyard collection, and thanks to modern engines being fitted is still sea-going. MTB 102, the prototype Vosper MTB, and the boat used to develop the deck-mounted, forward firing torpedo tubes characteristic of WWII MTBs, has also been privately preserved.

4th MTB Flotilla
MTB 22 Brightlingsea. Paid Off. Repairs. Completes 8 October approx.
MTB 29 Lowestoft.
MTB 30 Weymouth.
MTB 31 Shoreham. Paid Off. Repairs. Date uncertain
MTB 32 Brightlingsea. Paid Off
MTB 34 Harwich.
MTB 69 Harwich.
MTB 70 Harwich.
MTB 71 Harwich.
MTB 72 Brightlingsea.
MTB 102 Portsmouth. Repairs. Date uncertain

21st MTB Flotilla (temporarily allocated Portsmouth)
MTB 223 Portland.
MTB 224 Poole. Defects. Date uncertain
MTB 225 Poole. Paid Off. Repairs. Date uncertain
MTB 232 Harwich.
MTB 233 Harwich.
MTB 234 Lowestoft.
MTB 241 Harwich.

22nd MTB Flotilla (To form and work up at Weymouth)
MTB 83 Lowestoft.
MTB 87 Lowestoft.
MTB 88 Portsmouth. Repairs. Date uncertain
MTB 93 Lymington.
MTB 222 Portsmouth.
MTB 226 Portsmouth.
MTB 230 Gosport.
MTB 238 Lowestoft.

6th MGB Flotilla
MGB 58 Harwich.
MGB 59 Paid Off. Refit. Completes 2 October
MGB 60 Harwich.
MGB 61 Harwich.
MGB 63 Brightlingsea Paid Off. Repairs. Date uncertain
MGB 64 Harwich.
MGB 65 Harwich.
MGB 67 Brightlingsea Repairs. Completes 2 October

8th MGB Flotilla
MGB 74 Felixstowe.
MGB 75 Plymouth.
MGB 76 Harwich.
MGB 77 Harwich.
MGB 78 Dartmouth.
MGB 79 Southampton. Refit. Completes 7 October
MGB 80 Plymouth.
MGB 81 Harwich.

6th ML Flotilla
ML 145 Ipswich. Repairs. Completes 19 October
ML 146 Harwich.
ML 147 Harwich.
ML 148 Dover.
ML 149 Dover.
ML 150 Dover.
ML 151 Harwich.
ML 152 Harwich.

51st ML Flotilla
ML 100 Harwich.
ML Ipswich. Repairs. Completes 30 September
ML 106 Harwich.
ML 110 Harwich.

Admin

[Rich]

Hi Admin

My Grandads Service Record did say that he spent a couple of months at HMS Hornet from 9th March 1942 to 14th May 1942.

That may correlate to some of the boats above.

Richard

[Admin]

Richard

On the whole your grandfather's service record is difficult to interpret, being more impressionistic than certain. Starting with what is known, HMS Suffolk was badly bombed during an attempt at bombarding Stavangar aerodrome, and had to limp back to the Northern Fleet base at Scapa Flow where it was beached.

Admiralty Diary 17 April, 1940

SUFFOLK fired 217 rounds at Stavanger aerodrome between 0445 and 0605/17. Observation of fire was difficult as a/c communication broke down. During the action, a torpedo was seen to miss astern. After withdrawing at sunrise SUFFOLK and 5 destroyers proceeded to sweep northward to intercept 5 enemy destroyers seen passing Stavanger at 190u/lb. Shortly after, SUFFOLK was heavily and persistently bombed by a/c's, sustained one hit and several near misses, and with difficulty made Scapa on 16/4. During attacks, F.A.A a/c's brought down 1 Heinkel, 1 Dornier and damaged 3 Heinkels. 12 bomber a/c's raided Stavanger late 17/4. 2 failed to return.

At 0826 SUFFOLK reported being bombed (211 NPOX 11. Persistently attacked, nit 1050, heavily damaged, speed reduced to 18 knots, ammunition nearly expended, 3 Hudsons will be sent at 1200, C-in-C., H.F. orders all Skuas to be sent and REPULSE, RENOWN, Adty. order CALCUTTA to proceed with despatch, SUFFOLK to make for Fair I., speed at noon 12 knots, fighter escort of 9 arrived 1420, JAVELIN, FURY TARTAR, BLYSKAWICA, GROM to proceed. 33 attacks, 82 bombs, after engine rooms flooded, over 1000 tons water on board, steering by screw, feed water for 24 hours, tugs required, tug BUCCANEER sent 1752, ST. MELLONS sent 1822, casualties 17 (?K) one missing believed killed (?17) W.

SUFFOLK arrived Scapa 0645/18 (F.O.C.O.S 0720/18) and was beached in Long Hope (R.A. Scapa 1543/18).

In effect the ship would have been out of commission at that point for the foreseeable future, and would have been paid off. That would have meant most of the crew returning to their home port, which in your grandfather's case was Portsmouth (Victory). The hurt certificate speaks of a serious injury so that would no doubt have required a period of hospitalisation and recuperation up until July perhaps.

Hornet had been recommissioned in December 1939, but came under the umbrella of Vernon temporarily, prior to the base at Gosport which been acquired from the RAF was prepared for occupation. This didn't take place until October of 1940.

The record for early 1941 is a bit confused at this point showing Attack (MTB 03) and Boscawen (MTB 03) for the same date — 29 Jan — written twice. This doesn't quite tally with what is known about the boat. Geoffrey Hudson, Coastal Forces Veterans Association Honorary Historian writes:

MTB 1-6, 14-19, 1st MTB Flotilla, left Malta November 1939 to return to Portsmouth. MTB 6 lost in heavy weather off Sardinia 16 November 1939. The other boats arrived at Portsmouth mid December, where MTB 1, 2, 5 and 19 remained. In May 1940, along with MTB 3 and 4, they were re-designated Minesweeper Attendant Craft (MAC). MTB 1–5 became MAC 1–5 and MTB 19 became MAC 6.

MTB 100. MMS 51 too small and high powered for minesweeping. In Autumn 1938 re-designated MTB 100 and attached to HMS VERNON, Torpedo School, Portsmouth. Converted to MTB late 1939 to March 1940 when third Napier Lion engine and two 18in deck tubes fitted; the first deck tubes in a 60ft BPB MTB. MTB 100 then joined 3rd MTB Flotilla (Training), at HMS HORNET, Gosport until June 1941. Then transferred to 1st MTB Flotilla, at HMS BEEHIVE, Felixstowe.

The Red List for 2 February 1941 shows:

VESSELS FITTING OUT FOR VARIOUS SERVICES continued.
MINESWEEPING ATTENDANT CRAFT.
(D) M.A.C. 3 (ex M.T.B. 3)
(D) M.A.C. 4 (ex M.T.B. 1) Portsmouth f.o. Date uncertain.

D = Devonport crew
f.o. = fitting out

M.T.B. 5 Portsmouth. De-engined.

It's possible he went to Harwich with MTB 45 in August 1941, prior to transferring to MTB 100, then MTB 18 under Beehive at Felixstowe.

A lot here may hinge on what exactly happened for your grandfather to receive a second hurt certificate, and when he actually sustained his main injuries. At the moment nothing in the records I have show an incident around, or immediately prior to October 1942 where there were wounded, and he is named, so we may need to await further information telling us what boat(s) he was serving on.

The only other snippet of information I can impart, is that as a Regular Navy Acting Leading Telegraphist as of September 1941, if he was on a frontline boat, he could possibly—depending on numbers available—be expected to be on the Senior Officer of Flotilla's boat.

Admin

[Rich]

Hi Admin,

Yes, the Service Record is extremely hard to read, and I'd say generally the most detail was around the time of him being on HMS Suffolk early on in the war. He is listed as being injured from burns to face and hands in the Admiralty Report for HMS Suffolk\Operation Duck - https://www.naval-history.net/xDKWDa-No ... amaged.htm.

There's a one line entry between the two hurt certificate entries that may be quite revealing, but is virtually ineligable. I've run it through various AI handwriting to text translators and they all struggle with it, however the reponse is always that the first word is 'Invalided' with the last word of the sentence probably being 'legs' (he did get wounded in one of his legs, and said it was from a bullet). The words in the middle part of the sentence are pretty much impossible to understand.

I do wonder if some of the boat entries might be mistakes or just bad handwriting, in particular I wonder if 'MTB 18' is actually a different boat, but the hand writing makes the first digit look like a '1' but perhaps it's something else e.g. 7, 8 or 9 as it's an unsual looking '1'.

I'm certainly disappointed in the Service Record, but maybe I built my hopes up too much. It was wartime afterall, with higher priorities than keeping records straight, and I suspect there was less rigidity around such things in Coastal Forces than on the big ships of the fleet!

In one of your earlier responses, you mentioned requesting his "Pay & Victualling Records". Is that something I request from the National Archives at Kew or from the Royal Navy, and does it require a Freedom of Information request?

In raising such a request, what level of detail do you think I'd require to provide?

Many Thanks

Richard

[Admin]

Hello Richard

I'm fairly certain the boat listed is MTB 18, which is a fit for the records since MTB 18 and MTB 100 were both part of the 1st MTB Flotilla at Beehive.

As for applying for his service record details, if memory serves me correct, the MOD, who are the ones who still hold Royal Navy records at the time being, appear to have relaxed their criteria, as I recall there was a fee payable in the past unless you were the spouse. I applied for my mother who was still with us at the time, and had to supply a copy of my father's death certificate, and a copy of my mother's marriage certificate, but that was about proving eligibility for having the fee waived.

All you will need to day it seems is a copy of your father's death certificate, otherwise exemption to a freedom of information request would apply. Since you already have his service record, and date of joining courtesy of the service record details you already have, applying should be straight forward.

Here is the precise page you require:

Apply for a deceased military record

Admin

[Rich]

Hi Admin

I just applied on the link. But I think that's the same link I used to get the Service Records :-(

Is there an alternative link for "Pay & Victualling Records"?

Thanks

Richard

[Admin]

The service record details the MOD supplies will be drawn from the Pay & Victualling records they hold.

Admin

[Rich]

Hi Admin,

It looks like I've gone as far as I'm going to get with the MOD and the Royal Navy Secretariat using the link provided above. I got the following response:

I have spoken to the Navy Search Team regarding your Grandad's Service Records and they have confirmed that you were provided with all of the information we hold as a result of the first application. No P&V record was required, as the Service Record was a full card. I have therefore asked them to file your second application, as it would not provide you with any new information.

Which is a tad disappointing, considering his Service Record was largely empty after October 1942.

Do you have any other lines of enquiry I could take?

Thanks

Richard

[Admin]

Richard

I didn’t realise from what you initially wrote at start of the thread, that you had already been in contact with the RN Disclosure Service.

Am I right in thinking that you don’t have your grandfather’s service record, which is the document he would have been given when he left the service, but that the service details you hold have been provided by the RN in the form of a photocopy of his service card?

It would appear that there are three components to this:

Certificate of Service — a strong parchment like four-page document, with name, service number, dob, religion, next-of-kin, civilian trade, postings, rank, conduct, wounds, gratuities etc given to a man on discharge from the service.

The Service Card — a record of the above but in a slightly different format and held by the Royal Navy

Payment & Victualling Records — held by the Royal Navy and from which a record of service can be compiled.

One remark in the documentation I received from the Disclosure Cell whose meaning and significance I'd not previously considered states:

Listed below is a record of …. service history between 18 November 1941 and 24 May 1946. This information has been extracted from Payment and Victual (P & V) Ledgers as it was not recorded on the attached service record card.

This is the first time I've come across the notion of a service card with service details included, as I'd assumed all requests to the Disclosure Cell involved compiling results from the P & V records they hold.

If the Royal Navy are declining to do the work of looking through the P & V Ledgers on account of your grandfather's service card being deemed to hold the details already, then it would be a matter of what you might be able to insist upon further under Freedom of Information, and what they can legitimately decline to do further.

There's an argument for saying P & V Ledgers have previously been shown to contain more details than are to be found in a service record or service card, and that they can't know for certain that won't be so in your grandfather's case unless they look.

Other than contesting their written statement, I can't see any way of proceeding further.

Admiin

[Rich]

Hi Admin,

Yes, I recieved the Service Record in early June from the MOD disclosure office. That was the document I shared with you a few weeks ago.

That's as much as I've got from them.

Cheers

Richard

[Rich]

Hi

I signed up to 'findmypast' and I think I've found when my Grandad recieved his wounds.

It was on the 28th or 29th of July. The Royal Navy casualities list mentions 4 others as well, all with what looks like shrapnel wounds and brought back to Felixstowe.

Any ideas what happened on those dates?

Thanks

Richard

[Rich]

It's all become clear now, he was aboard MGB 67

[Admin]

It was on the 28th or 29th of July. The Royal Navy casualities list mentions 4 others as well, all with what looks like shrapnel wounds and brought back to Felixstowe.

Any ideas what happened on those dates?

Is your grandfather specifically named within the records you've seen?

The following extract is from Home Waters MTBs & MGBs by Len Reynolds. The relevant record in the National Archives is MO 10737 which is contained within ADM 199/782

The only action by the ‘short’ boats was in the Nore, when on 28/29 July a double unit from the 4th MTBs and the 6th MGBs from Felixstowe met a convoy escorted by E-boats off Ostend. Both units were ‘under new management’ the 6th MGBs had been handed over to George Bailey, the Senior Officer of the old team, and now leading a new set of COs in their famous boats. They naturally regarded themselves as the ‘second division’ but were determined to prove themselves. Bailey now a Lieutenant Commander, led in 67, with 63 (Boissard) in support. The 4th were led by D G H (Jake) Wright in MTB 32 with MTB 69 (M A Pryor) in company. When the convoy was sighted the MGBs took on the E-boats of the escort, while Wright in 32 was able to close with a merchant vessel and scored a torpedo hit. His boat received some damage and casualties. Soon after Bailey decided to launch a depth charge attack on a trawler — very similar to Hitchens’ attack two weeks earlier; he had similar results both in terms of success and in the severe damage and multiple casualties suffered. Bailey's boat was badly holed forward, and was set on fire. There was another parallel with the earlier action: George Bailey was awarded the DSO, and Jake Wright a DSC, while both their crews were honoured with several DSMs

The two casualties for the boat were:

Able Seaman William F Langley P/SSX 23335 29/7/1942
Sub-Lieutenant Walter Thomas Wilson 29/7/1942 Age: 22

The Coastal Forces Log Book for January–September 1942 (ADM 199 2413) records:

One officer and one rating killed
Two ratings seriously injured
Two officers and ten ratings wounded

The following awards recorded in Seedies Awards to Coastal Forces were notified in the London Gazette 29th September 1942:

For an attack on enemy supply ships and E-Boats off the Dutch coast on 29 Jul 1942
Temporary Acting Lieutenant-Commander George Edward BAILEY RNVR: Distinguished Service Order
Able Seaman Lawrence FLETCHER C/SSX 20019: Distinguished Service Medal
Stoker 1st Class John HODGKINSON D/KX 87752: Mention in Despatches
Temporary Lieutenant John Brooks HORWOOD RNVR: Mention in Despatches
Able Seaman William Frederick LANGLEY P/SSX 23335: Mention in Despatches (Posthumous)
Able Seaman Jack Beddoe PRESCOTT P/JX 321232: Mention in Despatches
Able Seaman Arthur Neal SAXBY P/SSX 21295: Mention in Despatches
Chief Motor Mechanic Raymond Harold WHITE P/MX 69118: Distinguished Service Medal
Acting Petty Officer William Arthur Joseph WOLLAGE C/JX 136481: Distinguished Service Medal

Admin